Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

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They're primarily wanderers who "handle" (steal) things. That's actually the only connection to the (bigoted myths about) Romani. They don't otherwise have anything in common with them--not like the Vistani, who were deliberately made to be Romani knock-offs.
See that's why I found it surprising. I've heard the Vistani criticism and can definitely see the comparison people have an issue with. It's hard to defend it when the setting they're used in is basically Eastern Europe where the Romani are from to make the whole thing worse. I don't really see a connection with kender since their thievery isn't driven by greed which doesn't really fit the Romani stereotype imo.
 

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DarkCrisis

Legend
It's the writers fault for writing a race that is kleptomaniacal and has Taunt as a racial ability and is utterly fearless and is naturally anarchic and is willing to get into danger, no matter the consequences, because of being fearless and thinking death is just another adventure and who apparently can't understand what private property is despite being known to take things but not give them... well, that's a problem. If a race constantly causes problems except for a few good players who have to deliberately change the way the race is described in order to avoid interparty conflict--then yes, there's a problem with the race.
Sounds like a fun race to RP with and nice and different than the average adventurer.

I could say the same thing about a War-like race or class (lets say Krynn Minotaurs) or the average tropy Barbarian) who charge into battle and who don't mind insulting anyone they deem weaker than them. Would really suck for the party trying to negotiate with the King when the Barbarian calls him a "Weak Dog!". Must be the classes fault?

No its the players fault. It always the players (and/or the DMs fault). I'd much rather have a fun loving Kender in my group than a Conan-wanna be who causes more problems than they solve.

The amount of times Ive had to reign back a "Ill fight anything!" player because his character tried to pick a fight with the guards/shop keepers/helpful wizard/King/whatever... yeah I'll take a Kender any day.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
It's the writers fault for writing a race that is kleptomaniacal and has Taunt as a racial ability and is utterly fearless and is naturally anarchic and is willing to get into danger, no matter the consequences, because of being fearless and thinking death is just another adventure and who apparently can't understand what private property is despite being known to take things but not give them... well, that's a problem. If a race constantly causes problems except for a few good players who have to deliberately change the way the race is described in order to avoid interparty conflict--then yes, there's a problem with the race.
I guess if you're writing a character for a novel, you're not necessarily thinking about game playabilty?
 

DarkCrisis

Legend
See that's why I found it surprising. I've heard the Vistani criticism and can definitely see the comparison people have an issue with. It's hard to defend it when the setting they're used in is basically Eastern Europe where the Romani are from to make the whole thing worse. I don't really see a connection with kender since their thievery isn't driven by greed which doesn't really fit the Romani stereotype imo.
I love original Ravenloft but lets not pretend Hickman didn't watch the old B/W Dracula film and then make an RPG out of it. That whole "gypsy" trope thing is right out of Dracula.
 

Hussar

Legend
We're talking about how there's an issue trying to sell the Cataclysm as a Good* thing the Good gods helped do in retaliation for the Kingpriest being too Good.

No one else is trying to tie it to real world stuff (And thus the third rail we're not allowed to touch on this forum) here.

*Even by D&D Good standards. 'Respect life' my butt.

Again. Who is claiming that the Cataclysm is good? Citation please. As far as I can see you guys are the only ones claiming this.
 



Faolyn

(she/her)
I guess if you're writing a character for a novel, you're not necessarily thinking about game playabilty?
But Dragonlance isn't just a novel series. It's a game as well. It's not even a novel that was converted to a game--the books and adventures were put out nearly at the same time.

Edit: IIRC, the character came from the home D&D game that was later turned into Dragonlance. The character was, IIRC, a halfling who ended up with a ring of invisibility, and Weiss and Hickman were like, no, that's a bit too close to Tolkien there.

I could say the same thing about a War-like race or class (lets say Krynn Minotaurs) or the average tropy Barbarian) who charge into battle and who don't mind insulting anyone they deem weaker than them. Would really suck for the party trying to negotiate with the King when the Barbarian calls him a "Weak Dog!". Must be the classes fault?
Do minotaurs or barbarians have it written into their racial or class features that they always call people weak dogs? Or that they are more than willing to attack other party members because they can't understand that they shouldn't?

No, they don't.

You don’t think the Cataclysm is based on an ancient story?
Technically, and from a meta-position, of course it is. But it's not meant to be a retelling of that story. It's just supposed to invoke the same feelings that the original story.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
See that's why I found it surprising. I've heard the Vistani criticism and can definitely see the comparison people have an issue with. It's hard to defend it when the setting they're used in is basically Eastern Europe where the Romani are from to make the whole thing worse. I don't really see a connection with kender since their thievery isn't driven by greed which doesn't really fit the Romani stereotype imo.
I agree. On the other hand, I am not, to my knowledge, of Romani heritage (I'd love to get my genes tested, though) so I'm not going to speak for them on this matter. While I desperately want to change the kender, it's not because of racism.
 


Hussar

Legend
Technically, and from a meta-position, of course it is. But it's not meant to be a retelling of that story. It's just supposed to invoke the same feelings that the original story.
Yup.

And largely evoke the same discussions as well.
 

Hussar

Legend
I just realized, after seeing someone mention paladins, that the story of the Cataclysm is a gaming story about playing a paladin in 1e D&D. Bear with me as I wind up the wayback machine...

Our story begins with the group of nine PC's at the edge of the lands of the Baron. The Baron is a very charismatic leader whose people adore him and venerate him. He is also attempting to open a portal which will bring an Elder Being into the world in 14 days that will destroy much of the world. Our heroes are here to stop him.

Paladin: Ok, guys, let's go.

13 failed attempts later, the group, very discouraged debates what to do.

Paladin: I know a guy. We'll send him in. He can do it.

DM: roll roll roll Sorry, no, he failed to get the job done. You've got one day left. What do you do?

MU player: Y'know, I've got this scroll that I've been saving. Ultimate Meteor Swarm. It will turn the entire lands of Baron into a smoking crater.

Paladin: But, that will kill everyone.

MU Player: Yeah, but, what choice do we have at this point?

Paladin: Ok. You're right. Read the scroll.

BooM

DM: (Turning to the Paladin player): Ok, your god appears to you and formally strips you of your paladin hood. You can never be a paladin again.

Paladin: But, I stopped the ritual.

DM: But, you also killed all those people. Totally evil dude. You could have tried something else.

Paladin: We tried 13 different things. Nothing worked.

DM: You could have snuck into his castle and killed him while he's asleep.

Paladin: I'm a paladin. That would totally be out of character and an evil thing to do.

DM: True, you would have sacrificed your paladin hood for the greater good. Would have been an epic story. As it is, now you're a fighter.

Paladin: Screw this. There was no right answer. You totally paladin trapped me. I'm out of here! Anyone with me?

Everyone: Yeah, this sucks. Let's go. We're out of here.

DM: ((After everyone leaves)) They'll be back. Might take 300 years, but, they'll be back.

/End Scene.
 

They're primarily wanderers who "handle" (steal) things. That's actually the only connection to the (bigoted myths about) Romani. They don't otherwise have anything in common with them--not like the Vistani, who were deliberately made to be Romani knock-offs.
also the wanderlust and the 'they don't know any better'
look i don't want to litigate this again, people who are Romani think it is too close
 



Vaalingrade

Legend
I just realized, after seeing someone mention paladins, that the story of the Cataclysm is a gaming story about playing a paladin in 1e D&D. Bear with me as I wind up the wayback machine...

Our story begins with the group of nine PC's at the edge of the lands of the Baron. The Baron is a very charismatic leader whose people adore him and venerate him. He is also attempting to open a portal which will bring an Elder Being into the world in 14 days that will destroy much of the world. Our heroes are here to stop him.

Paladin: Ok, guys, let's go.

13 failed attempts later, the group, very discouraged debates what to do.

Paladin: I know a guy. We'll send him in. He can do it.

DM: roll roll roll Sorry, no, he failed to get the job done. You've got one day left. What do you do?

MU player: Y'know, I've got this scroll that I've been saving. Ultimate Meteor Swarm. It will turn the entire lands of Baron into a smoking crater.

Paladin: But, that will kill everyone.

MU Player: Yeah, but, what choice do we have at this point?

Paladin: Ok. You're right. Read the scroll.

BooM

DM: (Turning to the Paladin player): Ok, your god appears to you and formally strips you of your paladin hood. You can never be a paladin again.

Paladin: But, I stopped the ritual.

DM: But, you also killed all those people. Totally evil dude. You could have tried something else.

Paladin: We tried 13 different things. Nothing worked.

DM: You could have snuck into his castle and killed him while he's asleep.

Paladin: I'm a paladin. That would totally be out of character and an evil thing to do.

DM: True, you would have sacrificed your paladin hood for the greater good. Would have been an epic story. As it is, now you're a fighter.

Paladin: Screw this. There was no right answer. You totally paladin trapped me. I'm out of here! Anyone with me?

Everyone: Yeah, this sucks. Let's go. We're out of here.

DM: ((After everyone leaves)) They'll be back. Might take 300 years, but, they'll be back.

/End Scene.
I'm just gonna say that you're the one calling the writing of the Cataclysm bad, not me.

So people can accuse you of not having read enough DL.
 





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