Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[Umbran]

But whatever makes it easier for you...

Mod Note:
It isn't about what is easier for the poster you were talking to.

EN World has a rule against discussion or commentary on real world religions.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Genocide does happen in Sci Fi and fantasy normally when said race is irredeemabley evil, xenophobic or aggressive usually all three.

Hence why big bads often get imprisoned. Then escape.

that is true but the people he was targeting where not all that thus it seems the point is not relevant here.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think the issue isn't so much about real-world religion as it is about older belief systems (which informed a lot of classical literature, mythology, and yes, religions) with regard to collective punishments being handed down onto an entire group for the failure of one individual (usually a leader of some sort). You don't have to look very hard to find that particular idea in numerous tales from antiquity (and more recently, for that matter).

Now, that conflicts drastically with contemporary attitudes, which strongly emphasize personalism with regards to moral culpability. And since alignment presents itself as the objective presence of Good and Evil, it's easy to see why some people reject any presentation of "absolute Good" that fails to adhere to the present understanding of morality.

That said, I think there's room to understand and enjoy a game setting where an older, alternative definition of Goodness (even in an absolute sense) is utilized, without any presumption that this necessarily means that the people who enjoy that are legitimately rejecting contemporary values.

I've been informed recently that its impossible to publish something that doesn't conform to contemporary values, so I guess that's off the table.

Quick question, just out of curiosity: what exactly do the people here that seem to hate the thematic core of Dragonlance actually want DL to be in this "reimagined" version? What story do you want them to tell, and in what way would it still be Dragonlance, if you're rejecting the premise of the setting's fictional history and the story told in the original novels?

 

[Micah Sweet]

It seems like, given the origins of the philosophy espoused by Dragonlance through it's creator's beliefs, that this topic can't really be discussed without breaking forum rules.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Quick question, just out of curiosity: what exactly do the people here that seem to hate the thematic core of Dragonlance actually want DL to be in this "reimagined" version? What story do you want them to tell, and in what way would it still be Dragonlance, if you're rejecting the premise of the setting's fictional history and the story told in the original novels?

I don't hate the thematic core... I hate some of the specific bits though.

1. I want the balance of good and evil to be something that either A) isn't as needed or B) makes more sense with 'too much good' actually being examples of good, not people who we are told are good but doing super evil things
2. I want the alignment removed from the wizard robes and instead have them be concepts not good/evil

as for the story, I want the war of the lance. I want the gods are just coming back and the Draconian are just attacking

 

[Neonchameleon]

Getting back to the question of Gods, there's a difference between a Good pantheon and a Pantheon-in-being* (with the Dragonlance "good" pantheon actually being a Pantheon-in-being). And the best illustration of a pantheon-in-being is the 4e Nentir Vale deities, also used in Critical Role.

The Gods in that pantheon are definitely a pantheon-in-being and, although some of the gods are good e.g. Erathis God of Civilisation and The Raven Queen God of the Dead certainly aren't. What they are is a group of extremely powerful beings who trust enough to work together against outside threats - and it was this working together that enabled them to defeat the individually more powerful Primordials. Meanwhile the gods that can't get along with this pantheon, normally because they think they should be the ones in charge, are outside it. The ones who can't get along and think they should be in charge are (like Tahksis) normally evil - but this is not a necessity.

If a Pantheon-in-being were to have e.g. caused the cataclysm few would have a problem. And most people would, I think, agree that the Pantheon In Being was an improvement over Takhsis' would be usurpers. The problem arises when a neutral pantheon-in-being is somehow claimed to be the embodiment of Good.

* Name borrowed from a fleet-in-being

 

[Neonchameleon]

I've been informed recently that its impossible to publish something that doesn't conform to contemporary values, so I guess that's off the table.

It's Impossible WotC will. If you're a small press go knock yourself out.

Quick question, just out of curiosity: what exactly do the people here that seem to hate the thematic core of Dragonlance actually want DL to be in this "reimagined" version?

Asked and answered. Balance Is Good is not the thematic core of Dragonlance as presented in the books. The thematic core is presented in the modules - and it's a large Saturday Morning Cartoon setting of good vs evil where the bad guys come colour coded for your convenience.

"Balance is king" is hated in part because it opposes the thematic core of Dragonlance. And the idea that Balance Is The Ultimate Good was a steaming dump taken at the end of the three original books (which were about a fight against often colour coded villains) and has almost no bearing on most of the books.

If you were to cut Balance Is Good from the original trilogy you'd have to change what? Three paragraphs between the three novels. If you were to cut it from The Twins trilogy would you have to change anything? I didn't realise until I was multiple books in that the "Good" Gods had directly caused the Cataclysm - my understanding was that the Kingpriest had tried a spell to compel the Gods and it had blown up in his face.

So what do I want? I want Dragonlance to follow through on its thematic core rather than betray its own thematic core with things that stand in stark conflict with what it presented as its thematic core.

I just think that you are completely wrong about what that thematic core is.

 

[Faolyn]

I've been informed recently that its impossible to publish something that doesn't conform to contemporary values, so I guess that's off the table.

Nobody has said that.

But really, if you publish something in 2022 that conforms to the values of something written in 1985, with all the (un)intentional sexism, racism, and other bigotries of the time, and without any understanding of what tropes are no longer interesting--who do you think would buy it?

Quick question, just out of curiosity: what exactly do the people here that seem to hate the thematic core of Dragonlance actually want DL to be in this "reimagined" version? What story do you want them to tell, and in what way would it still be Dragonlance, if you're rejecting the premise of the setting's fictional history and the story told in the original novels?

And absolutely nobody has said that they hate the thematic core of Dragonlance. In fact, lots of people have said that they love the thematic core. A great war, involving dragon-riding knights, between Good and Evil. With draconian super-soldiers on one side.

What people don't want are the stupid things in the setting. Cosmically "Good" people and organizations that allow for or actively commit evil deeds. Mary Sue kletpomaniacs. Ablest caricatures. Poorly-thought out white stereotypes of Native Americans. And so forth.

The real question is, why is it so important that these things remain in the game?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Quick question, just out of curiosity: what exactly do the people here that seem to hate the thematic core of Dragonlance actually want DL to be in this "reimagined" version? What story do you want them to tell, and in what way would it still be Dragonlance, if you're rejecting the premise of the setting's fictional history and the story told in the original novels?

Epic fantasy dragon-riding battles.

I don't want there to be the idiotic "too much Good is just as bad as too much Evil" moral. That is stupid and demonstrably incorrect and every time they tried to prove the moral true in the setting, they just made the "too much Good" just be "too much Evil".

I don't want the setting's morals to excuse/endorse genocide. I don't want the people that commit genocide and other atrocities to be labeled as "Good".

I also don't want "Good" and "Unbelievably Stupid" to be synonymous in the setting (i.e. the origin story of Draconians).

I don't want the setting to have stand-ins for real world mental disorders (autism/down syndrome, kleptomania, ADHD, Alzheimer's/dementia) that it regularly mocks.

I want magical knights that ride on the backs of dragons to fight other dragons. That's what I want. Not questionable (at best) morals and ableist mockery.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Nobody has said that.

But really, if you publish something in 2022 that conforms to the values of something written in 1985, with all the (un)intentional sexism, racism, and other bigotries of the time, and without any understanding of what tropes are no longer interesting--who do you think would buy it?


And absolutely nobody has said that they hate the thematic core of Dragonlance. In fact, lots of people have said that they love the thematic core. A great war, involving dragon-riding knights, between Good and Evil. With draconian super-soldiers on one side.

What people don't want are the stupid things in the setting. Cosmically "Good" people and organizations that allow for or actively commit evil deeds. Mary Sue kletpomaniacs. Ablest caricatures. Poorly-thought out white stereotypes of Native Americans. And so forth.

The real question is, why is it so important that these things remain in the game?

If you think the thematic core of DL is the War of the Lance, then you’ve probably only ever read the first trilogy of novels.

There is a lot more to DL than just LOL Dragon War pew pew pew. Again, you could stick that in any setting, like Faerun.