Dragonshield Tactics

[Irda Ranger]

Immediate Reactions (such as Dragonshield Tactics), take place directly after the triggering action. In this case, the Move Action of the approaching PC ... Since Charge is a complete action, taking up movement and attack, then the Dragonshield could not shift until after the whole sequence was complete, so you are correct there.

There is no such thing as a "complete" action. Charge is a single standard action that involves movement and a basic attack. This standard action is resolved before the DT shift occurs (if he chooses to use it).

Note that DT is not triggered by a move action, merely by an opponent moving to an adjacent square.

What's interesting about charge is that you can Move Action before your Charge, but not after (which is an exception to the general rule that allows you to take your actions in any order).

 

[Ulthwithian]

Hm. Maybe they could have used a better term in the description of the ability... or, at least, a term that didn't have a reserved meaning...

Like 'enter'.

 

[Vendark]

They probably should have called it a "triggering event" instead of a "triggering action." That would likely have prevented the confusion.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Like 'enter'.

But you can enter a square by shifting. You have to 'move' into an adjacent square to trigger DT.

It's a little confusing, but it's less confusing than any of the alternatives I can think of.

 

[Terramotus]

But you can enter a square by shifting. You have to 'move' into an adjacent square to trigger DT.

It's a little confusing, but it's less confusing than any of the alternatives I can think of.

See, we actually debated this today. Heavily. The GM and the other players in my group all believed that allowing a shift into the Dragonshield's square made the whole thing unnecessarily complicated and nerfed the Dragonshield. Their opinion was the point of a Dragonshield was that it was almost impossible to engage, necessitating things like spending a round (or an action point) moving backwards to get the two squares necessary for a charge, and then charging.

This reading was based on the quick-start rules stating that a shift was a type of move action, making the shift a "move" that triggers the power. The remainder of the Dragonshield Tactics allowing the Dragonshield to shift when a foe shifts was explained as a shift being a type of move, and the power wanting to specify only shifts, sort of how a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Their point was that if the Dragonshield Tactics ability had been meant to not apply to shifts, it would have stated that it fired when an opponent moved adjacent, except on a shift.

I protested in the strongest possible terms, as IMO this makes the ability broken-powerful, and in fact it almost resulted in a TPK on the second road ambush. But my only alternative was to refuse to play, so I went along with it.

 

[thewok]

Think about the meaning of the power: it's a way for Dragonshields to allow engagement only on their terms. If you move up to engage, they shift away. If you shift away, they can press their attack.

As I read it, the reaction occurs if an enemy is adjacent at the end of the enemy's action, or if the enemy shifts away. So, a charging hero would get his attack on the kobold, but the kobold would then move away.

 

[Colmarr]

I initially considered that DT would trigger against an enemy shifting towards to the Dragonshield. I did not accept that the word "move" in the power description was used in the game-term sense.

Then it occurred to me that the combination of DT and the kobold ability to shift as a minor action has the potential to be insanely powerful. If DT is triggered by shifting enemies, then against a medium opponent without a reach or ranged weapon, the dragonshield becomes almost unkillable. It moves into combat, attacks, then shifts out. When the enemy tries to follow (even with a shift), it shifts away. The enemy can only get attacks by using an action point or by doing the "charge dance" (back up then charge in the same turn). The former is excessively harsh and the latter is frankly IMO stupid.

I am therefore convinced that for balance reasons, if I have any say in it with our DM, DT will not activate when an enemy shifts into a square adjacent to the Dragonshield.

 

[nortonweb]

I agree.

If the DS faces someone and they shift away then the DT can activate and shift 1 sq (to follow up).

If someone moves into the DS the DT can activate and shift away.

Also the DS can move in attack and using a minor shift out.

If an opponent moves in he can shift away but remember you only get one immediate action a round so if someone else moved in the DS would not get to use DT (also you can back them into a corner).

But if an opponent shifts in then no that wouldn't activate the DT.

Also the text (that we have) for an intimidate reaction (that DT is) says that the action that is being reacted against is completely resolved before the reaction takes place. So perhaps some of the Warlords abilities could be used against the DT type move in and out tactic.

 

[thewok]

Then it occurred to me that the combination of DT and the kobold ability to shift as a minor action has the potential to be insanely powerful. If DT is triggered by shifting enemies, then against a medium opponent without a reach or ranged weapon, the dragonshield becomes almost unkillable. It moves into combat, attacks, then shifts out. When the enemy tries to follow (even with a shift), it shifts away. The enemy can only get attacks by using an action point or by doing the "charge dance" (back up then charge in the same turn). The former is excessively harsh and the latter is frankly IMO stupid.

That's the point, though. It's supposed to be powerful. Kobolds aren't meant to be 1/4 HD xp fodder anymore. They're supposed to be quick fighters that are very hard to catch up to.

However, Immediate Actions are usable only once per round. So, if a player charges a Dragonshield, he can use Tactics to shift away after the charge. But, if the player then uses a move to shift next to him again, the Dragonshield is stuck there until his next turn (or until the next round, when the trigger for Tactics might again occur). It's a powerful ability, to be certain, but it's not *that* powerful.

 

[small pumpkin man]

That's the point, though. It's supposed to be powerful. Kobolds aren't meant to be 1/4 HD xp fodder anymore. They're supposed to be quick fighters that are very hard to catch up to.

However, Immediate Actions are usable only once per round. So, if a player charges a Dragonshield, he can use Tactics to shift away after the charge. But, if the player then uses a move to shift next to him again, the Dragonshield is stuck there until his next turn (or until the next round, when the trigger for Tactics might again occur). It's a powerful ability, to be certain, but it's not *that* powerful.

Yes, the DS is stuck there untill it's turn, when it attacks and shifts away, after which the PC can't attack them again. If you use it like that neither the Fighter nor the Paladin from KotB can engage a DS in single combat, you need either two characters or ranged attacks, and that's seems a little bit over the top.