Dragonshield Tactics

[Aria Silverhands]

The "triggering action" isn't the whole move action. It's the move adjacent.

The problem here is the terminology used. A move action allows the pc to move up to their speed in squares. Thus, an entire move action is encapsulated in that one action, whether they move only one square or six squares. Otherwise, each square would be considered a move action by themselves.

 

[Vendark]

The problem here is the terminology used. A move action allows the pc to move up to their speed in squares. Thus, an entire move action is encapsulated in that one action, whether they move only one square or six squares. Otherwise, each square would be considered a move action by themselves.

The rules on immediate actions say that powers define the triggering action. Dragonshield Tactics defines it as "an enemy moves adjacent," not "an enemy makes a move action that includes a move adjacent."

So, yes, the triggering action is a subset of a move action. I don't see that this is a problem.

 

[chaotix42]

n/m

 

[pinbot]

The rules on immediate actions say that powers define the triggering action. Dragonshield Tactics defines it as "an enemy moves adjacent," not "an enemy makes a move action that includes a move adjacent."

So, yes, the triggering action is a subset of a move action. I don't see that this is a problem.

The problem is that if you are willing to say that 'part of an action is still an action' which is what you are doing, there is no difference between an 'immediate reaction' and an 'immediate interrupt'. Obviously there is supposed to be a huge difference between those two things.

I'm hoping the source was just mistaken on this. Not just for 'consistent rules that use defined terms correctly make for less arguments' -- although that is the main reason. But in this particular case, the kobolds' shift is pretty weak if the pc's can keep moving afterwards--whereas if the pc's generally have to charge to make a melee attack it becomes a much more interesting battle.

 

[Vendark]

The problem is that if you are willing to say that 'part of an action is still an action' which is what you are doing, there is no difference between an 'immediate reaction' and an 'immediate interrupt'.

Wrong. If it was an immediate interrupt, the Dragonshield would shift before the enemy completed the move adjacent. So he could shift into the square the enemy was trying to move into, blocking the triggering action entirely, or he could shift in such a way as to get an opportunity attack from the enemy's move adjacent.

Since it's a reaction, he can't do those things. He has to wait until the move adjacent is complete.

 

[Azurecrusader]

The rules on immediate actions say that powers define the triggering action. Dragonshield Tactics defines it as "an enemy moves adjacent," not "an enemy makes a move action that includes a move adjacent."

So, yes, the triggering action is a subset of a move action. I don't see that this is a problem.

It seems like there are a lot of different ways to read things, I'm starting to see validity in all of them. In the end it really boils down to what you want the Dragonshield to embody; Quick but tough little soldiers who dance out of harms way, or straight up fighters who "take it on the chin" as many have mentioned. Personally, I see them as being able to avoid blows just as often as they take them, so I plan on playing them per the definitions I stated on Page 2.

No offense to Mr. Bonner, but I'll wait for a bit more certain response before I make any final calls on how they are really supposed to work.

 

[pinbot]

Wrong. If it was an immediate interrupt, the Dragonshield would shift before the enemy completed the move adjacent...
Since it's a reaction, he can't do those things. He has to wait until the move adjacent is complete.

I think I misunderstood your intent, and that we agree.

I thought when you said "So, yes, the triggering action is a subset of a move action." you were one of those arguing that the kobold should get to shift when a pc moves next to them, and then the pc could finish their move. Hence my comments about interrupt vs reaction. But it seems we agree that s/b forbidden.

Also, I think we agree about what you were actually talking about, if I have that right. I don't believe a kobold should get to shift just because somebody passed next to them, only if they END next to them.

Anyway, if you reword your assertion as "the triggering EVENT is a subset of a move action." then the misuse of the defined term is removed and hopefully the confusion with it.

 

[Irda Ranger]

No offense to Mr. Bonner, but I'll wait for a bit more certain response before I make any final calls on how they are really supposed to work.

Agreed. Even Logan admits he doesn't really know the answer. I also agree that the power would be pretty useless if the PC can just keep moving to keep up with him. It would effectively only come into play when the PC has to use his full Speed to move adjacent, which probably isn't that often in the grand scheme of things.

My ruling would still be that DST triggers when the PC completes a walk, run or charge action adjacent to the KDS.

 

[Vendark]

I think I misunderstood your intent, and that we agree.

I thought when you said "So, yes, the triggering action is a subset of a move action." you were one of those arguing that the kobold should get to shift when a pc moves next to them, and then the pc could finish their move.

No, I think that the rules do, in fact, allow the pc to keep moving. In my interpretation, the Dragonshield isn't dodging attacks with his power (at least, not usually), he's moving tactically to hold the line and prevent flanking from the pcs. I think this is more in keeping with his role as a Soldier. The other interpretation people are using would mean the power was better suited to a Skirmisher.

Anyway, if you reword your assertion as "the triggering EVENT is a subset of a move action." then the misuse of the defined term is removed and hopefully the confusion with it.

I do agree that this would be better terminology, and I wish KotS had used that terminology instead so people don't get stuck on the meaning of "action."

 

[pinbot]

No, I think that the rules do, in fact, allow the pc to keep moving. In my interpretation, the Dragonshield isn't dodging attacks with his power (at least, not usually), he's moving tactically to hold the line and prevent flanking from the pcs. I think this is more in keeping with his role as a Soldier. The other interpretation people are using would mean the power was better suited to a Skirmisher.

Well, I do see the merits of your role argument. I'd still say that in order to move in the middle of a pc's move action, the ability would have to be an 'immediate interupt'. That would make for more consistent rule use. Since this would make it more powerful, I'd probably want to see it tempered -- to something like

Close Ranks - Immediate Interupt - When an opponant enters an adjacent square the DS may shift as long as it ends adjacent to an ally

You are right that disallowing interrupts makes it more more like an irregular than a shieldman, but since it is a kobold that feels okay to me.