Drawing weapons when holding a two-handed weapon

[Knowledge Sinkhole]

Ok, I'm curious as to the legality of the following scenario:

Frank the first level fighter is wielding a greatsword. Since he's a human and wearing heavy armor, he can only move 20 ft. a round. Sam the sorceror is 30 feet away from Frank. On Frank's turn, Frank moves 20 feet towards Sam, drawing a throwing axe as part of the move action. (He is thus holding his greatsword in his other hand) Frank uses his attack action to throw his axe at Sam. After his attack, Frank resumes weilding his greatsword two-handed.

Is that all kosher? Though the greatsword is two-handed, since he's not using it to attack, it's treated like any other object, right? Thus, because the throwing axe is one handed, he can still draw it and attack with it without penalty. Correct?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

If I were DMing, it would be Kosher. 3.5 may have implemented rules regarding changing grip on a weapon and/or switching from wielding a weapon to carrying it. If so, they would probably make it legal by the letter of the rules. As it stands, however, I believe that some more (unreasonably) restrictive DMs would not allow it unless you had quickdraw.

 

[Gilwen]

I'd allow it too. He isn't using the greatsword and I don't see weapons that large to heavy to hold, just to heavy to use effectively one handed in combat. The drawing the axe is legal as far as I know, at least in 3.0 anyone with a BAB of +1 could do this.

bryan

 

[Snipehunt]

I recall a rule that you can change the grip on a two-handed weapon from two to one-handed/vice versa as a free action. But I'd only let a PC change grips once as a free action - either letting go, or grabbing, w/ the free hand. So, I would rule that Frank can throw the axe, but then he's stuck w/ an unusable greatsword until his next action.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Correct?

Correct according to the rules. Changing grip is a non-action, like blinking or pointing. If you want to get technical, you're dropping the greatsword with one hand (free action), drawing your axe while you move (move action), throwing (standard action), and placing your hand somewhere--in this case, on your sword (this isn't listed as an action).

That last bit could be problematic, but the rules help. The description for Bastard Sword, the description for Dwarven Waraxe, and the part about one-handed weapons all mention that you can use one-handed weapons in two hands. They never say that switching from one- to two-handed grip requires an action. This suggest to me that switching is a non action, or at most a free action. Of course, the rules don't spefically say that switching *does not* require any action.

IMHO, you're also correct in terms of both "realism" and play balance. You're certainly not re-drawing the weapon (which would require a Move action).

-z

 

[Snipehunt]

Changin grip is not a non-action.

Per the SRD:

Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else

Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.

Changing grip doesn't "literally take no time at all." It is not subsumed in any other action. It is a free action, or a move-equivalent. I recall that it is a free action, but can't find the rule.

Also, allowing it as not an action leads to this:

Two-handed fighter hits with his greatsword, killing the bad guy.

Changes grip to one hand, quickdraws a handaxe and throws it at another bad buy.

Changes grip to two-hand, takes a 5'step, kills another bad guy.

Switches grip again to one handed, quickdraws a dagger and throws it.

Changes grip to two-hand, and gets ready for AoO.

I would draw the line at 1 free change of grip/round. That's a judgement call, though. But allowing 5? or6? Seems a bit much.

 

[Snipehunt]

Re: Re: Drawing weapons when holding a two-handed weapon

Correct according to the rules. Changing grip is a non-action, like blinking or pointing. If you want to get technical, you're dropping the greatsword with one hand (free action), drawing your axe while you move (move action), throwing (standard action), and placing your hand somewhere--in this case, on your sword (this isn't listed as an action).

You realize in this scenario Frank is:

Drawing a handaxe (free action w/ movement); and
Drawing a two-handed sword (free action w/ movement, I guess).

If you analogize dropping one hand to dropping a weapon, then adding one hand is drawing a weapon.

Generally, placing your hand somewhere is an action - it's something you have to consciously do.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Changin grip is not a non-action.

Changing grip doesn't "literally take no time at all." It is not subsumed in any other action. It is a free action, or a move-equivalent. I recall that it is a free action, but can't find the rule.

Well, that clarifies things a bit. Must be a free action then, since it's not a move action.

Also, allowing it as not an action leads to this:

Two-handed fighter hits with his greatsword, killing the bad guy.

Changes grip to one hand, quickdraws a handaxe and throws it at another bad buy.

Changes grip to two-hand, takes a 5'step, kills another bad guy.

Switches grip again to one handed, quickdraws a dagger and throws it.

Changes grip to two-hand, and gets ready for AoO.

Your example is very cool--sounds like something Aragorn would do. Definitely heroic fantasy, definitely D&D. I'd throw in a cleave or two, to make it even more dramatic.

I would draw the line at 1 free change of grip/round. That's a judgement call, though. But allowing 5? or6? Seems a bit much.

I'd allow an unlimited number of grip changes, but I agree that it's a judgement call.

You realize in this scenario Frank is:

Drawing a handaxe (free action w/ movement); and
Drawing a two-handed sword (free action w/ movement, I guess).

If you analogize dropping one hand to dropping a weapon, then adding one hand is drawing a weapon.

I see what you're getting at but disagree. Placing a second hand upon a two-handed weapon is not drawing a weapon, since the weapon is already drawn. I suppose you could get fussy about the "Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat" wording, and claim that since a two-handed weapon held in one hand isn't usable in combat it is not technically drawn. But, me, I say a drawn weapon is an unsheathed weapon.

The way I see it, placing an empty hand upon a greatsword hilt is no different than placing an empty hand upon your head or hip. And you certainly wouldn't charge a player a move action to place a hand on a hip.

Here's an example: say a fighter is walking down the road. Since you can't sheath a longspear anywhere, we assume he's carrying it in his left hand while he walks. His other hand is empty. Suddenly he's charged by a bandit. Does the fighter get his AoO?

I'd say yes. The act of placing his other hand upon the shaft of the spear is trivial.

Here's another example. A greatsword fighter is exploring a tomb. He comes to a wide door. He reaches forward with one hand and opens the door wide. A goblin rushes out and past him. Does the fighter get his AoO?

I'd say yes. Again, the act of returning the hand used to open the door to the grip of the greatsword is trivial.

The rules clearly say that you need two hands to wield a two-handed weapon, but they don't specify the cost of changing grip. I think it's a judgement call for the DM.

-z

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Strange that you have a problem with this yet you (presumably) have no problem with drawing five (or 6 if hasted) arrows and firing them. Or, if the character has quickdraw (as is necessary for your supposedly ridiculous example) drawing and throwing five or six javalins.

I also fail to see any way in which your example is abusive. The character clearly has a +11 BAB. Why shouldn't a character with quickdraw be able to use that to make two ranged attacks and one melee attack? Surely, it wouldn't look any more ridiculous to fire a composite longbow twice (drawing two arrows in the process) then quickdraw the greatsword take a 5' step and attack a third villain in melee.

If a character is willing to spend a feat to be able to do either of these, I don't see how he benefits any more than he would by taking a feat like great cleave, power critical, or even beginner feats like power attack and dodge. It's not going to break anything, so why the hyperventilation?

Changin grip is not a non-action.

Changing grip doesn't "literally take no time at all." It is not subsumed in any other action. It is a free action, or a move-equivalent. I recall that it is a free action, but can't find the rule.

Also, allowing it as not an action leads to this:

Two-handed fighter hits with his greatsword, killing the bad guy.

Changes grip to one hand, quickdraws a handaxe and throws it at another bad buy.

Changes grip to two-hand, takes a 5'step, kills another bad guy.

Switches grip again to one handed, quickdraws a dagger and throws it.

Changes grip to two-hand, and gets ready for AoO.

I would draw the line at 1 free change of grip/round. That's a judgement call, though. But allowing 5? or6? Seems a bit much.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There's a long example in the FAQ with Gruntharg the longspear-wielding half-orc.

Free action to change grips... which still means Snipe's hack-throw-hack-throw scenario can be done.

-Hyp.