Dromus Prep Thread

[Tux the Penguin]

Actually guys, I believe Kell is going to split us into two groups of four, so don't go making your plans too much into stone (ironic, because my character does use stone... lol).

Edit: Page 3 claimed!

 

[Chassama]

One more thing (thus far)... Kelleris, I'm thinking of changing my character's race to Half-Orc. That okay?

 

[TrevWar]

and I'd rather not have to pay attention to potentially unbalancing PrCs
without worrying about balancing some pretty hard-to-balance random roll charts on top of all the other things to worry about
aren't terribly well balanced with each other
that would really screw over psionic characters and it would be an unholy pain to balance
that would cause nightmarish balance issues
and I'm not terribly keen on the balance of psionics as a whole

I'm going to remain silent here...


I still find the Psionic Fatigue item to be... off. Now since I'm not playing any thing with Psi or casting I would hope that my post would be seen as less bias.

I used the rules I did because they were what is presented in Unearthed Arcana and I don't like reinventing the wheel if I don't have to.

I can see your interests to "balance" things, and you used the Unearthed Arcana to do it, but I'm still confussed. Why didn't you use the rule on all casters? If there are the far realms, and other events and planar settings that effect the world and magic, why not apply this to caster as well? I'm just missing the reasoning here, it looks to me more like your picking on psionics as a whole and trying to allow it but deter people from playing it. If some one were to play one now, the odds run high of the party being hindered more then helpful by just one of these characters in the party.

As it is, psions have lost the ability to blow through their whole power point reserve in a half-hour without penalty.

I wasn't aware they had a penalty before, other then running out of Psi, which is about as bad as it gets. What penalty are you refering to?

If it weakens psions, it isn't like they can't afford it anyway.

So you still don't think that the new 3.5 Psionics is balanced? I can see how every book that comes out does have a errata follow it shortly. Now I haven't looked at the Energy Powers yet so I'm not sure how there over powered, but usually when more then one person says there overpowered, then they tend to be. And I haven't looked at the ability to augment save DCs either, so I can't speak there. But those being the main thing here, I would see you redoing the powers, or just having us select from the sorc list. But to just blanket the entire class with fatigue or worse seems to say "I'll allow psionics, but only if they take a huge penalty because I don't like them and my setting allows me to make them."

The Technologist looks like a cool class, I've usually liked its flavor, but its information is sketchy and it seems to be a full caster class with 8 for skills, d6 HD, 1/2 attack progression, Will as its good save, and it has the ability to ignore the planar discontinuities necessary for magic use in dromus. That seems rather "unbalanced" to me. I could see you basing it off the rogue, and taking away the "rogue" abilities and replacing them with casting and downing the BAB, but the fact that there devices work every were with out being effected by out side interference would be a balancing issue to me.

The ideas I’ve had on m character are still somewhat limited. The basics are he’s an Elven Soul Knife with a high dex, I’m thinking of makeing him young (42 years), and I’m still running though some ideas about his history.
Be sent here for some odd reason, but he’s to young.
Think that he was sent here, but over heard some one else’s assignment and is here out of confussion but thinks he’s on some type of quest.
Or for what ever reason have his parents leave him with some one to look atfer him until they return.
Any one have any ideas, or would any one like to adopt a young sneaky elven soul knife???

I like the look of the Psychic Assassin, and I like the idea of swaping out skills to better tweek the character, but I’ll take what ever skill list is allowed. The only reason I would see for making a sneaky Soul Knife is if Rich and them adopt me for there shop and use me to run errands and gather intel for them, which I’m not opposed to at all. If I went with that, then I would make my character more of a info gatherer, talker, sneaking kind of guy. On that note, what are the odds that we could add Merciful to the Soul Knifes enchancments? And if so, would that allow me to use Psychic Strike, and/or the other assissin abilities to deal subdual as well? I’d like to tweek the PrC a bit, nothing big, but DemonWolf pointed out the having to be evil thing, and I’d prefer not to have killed some one just to kill them as I’m not joining any assassin guild, I’d prefer my character know what he does through experimentation, observing others, and natural cunning.

 

[DemonWolfZero]

TrevWar...Psionics is overpowered now. Or if not ALL of it, some very specific iterations are much more powerful than they should be. Mind Thrust? D10s of damage up to TWENTY?! Twenty three if you're willing to Overchannel and take 5d8 pts of damage...Hell, burn another feat and you don't have to take that either.

Then you get to the Energy powers. Kineticists get Fireball, Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold, Lesser Energy Spheres and THEN they get the Energy Push and Stun powers. Additionally they get to choose energy types, which Arcane and Divine casters have to take a feat for. Additionally they get boosts based on which energy type they choose!

Just looking at those, Psionics is overpowered. Then you get to looking at things like the Cerebremancer and the Illithid Slayer and it's seriously FUBARd.

I don't find Exhausting Psionics to be an issue except when it comes to Psychic Warriors. When you look at the fact that now you get to recover a third of your Psi with an hour of rest? Or the two hours for two-thirds? I think that balances out the Exhausting Psionics VERY well. Also, I helped figure out the basics of magic in this system, or atleast I remember discussing it with Kelleris. Arcane casters use Planar static to cause magical effects. Divine casters ask their Gods for effects and the Gods cause the necessary static. Ki users generate effects similar to magical ones through their own bodies. But Psions use their minds to generate static on a planar level. I believe that would be incredibly taxing, don't you? I prefer the Fort save idea, but I'm just fine with Exhausting Psionics as is.

Well I'm done for now. I'ma watch a movie. Later.

 

[Tux the Penguin]

DWZ: Psionics as a whole are not overpowered. The problem is really not with the powers themselves, but rather the augmentations. Mind Thrust and the Energy spells are bad because of the cheap augmentations. If you even bumped it up to 2 pp for each extra dice, then suddenly its not so bad (10d10 mind thurst is only 55 damage, for a 20th level caster).

The other problem is augmentation for save DCs, which is sick. I believe there are actually powers that say "and for every 2 pp spent in "x" way, the DC increases by one". Those are the problems.

But outside of those few, choice, powers, psionics, as a casting system, is much more balanced than it was before. If they would erase all the augmentations and only do them as mentioned for spell points in Unearthed Arcana, it would fix a lot of problems.

Chassama: I think Kell already said half-orcs were cleared for play.

 

[DemonWolfZero]

Most of the powers are "For every extra pp spent, you deal an extra d6 of damage. For every 2 dice of damage, the save DC goes up by 1."

The best comparison, I feel is in Cone of Cold.

10th level Wizard with 20 Int casts Cone of Cold, no metamagic. He deals 10d6 cold damage and his Reflex save DC is 10 + 5(spell level) + 5(Int mod) = 20. A respectable DC.

10th level Psion with 20 Int casts Energy Cone (Cold), no metapsionics. He deals 10d6+10 cold damage and his FORTITUDE save DC is 10 + 3(power level) + 3(augmentation) + 5(Int mod) = 21. A slightly more than respectable DC, but if said Psion had chosen to do Electricity damage instead, the damage would have gone back down to 10d6, but the save would go up to a 23. Oh, and it would be Reflex again.

DC scaling by pp spent isn't the worst issue. Some of the powers are much bigger issues. Such as Energy Missile. Effectively Magic missile with an energy type. Its save DC goes up per pp spent. That means that a 20th level Kineticist with Energy Missile can make you dance with his missiles that do 20d6 to each of 5 separate targets that will either do +20 points of additional damage, ignore hardness or have a DC 2 higher than base, which btw is 10 + 2(power level) + 17(augmentation) + 11(conservative Int mod) = 40. Then there's the additional stuff you can do with that. Say you're Overchanneling that MoFo. Add 3 Manifester levels. Burn two of those on Empower Power and the other on an extra die of damage. You just dealt 25d6 to 5 separate targets with a save DC of 41, Fort or Ref, depending. Oh, and you still have 400 power points left.

There's a problem here somewhere.

 

[Tux the Penguin]

DWZ, that's exactly what I said. The problem of the augmentations isn't so much the ability to make it scale, but rather when you get two effects for a single augmentation.

If you made it read "for each 1 pp spent the damage increases by 1d6, or for each 2 pp spent, the DC increases by one" then you wouldn't have the bad problems. Your energy stuff would realistically be capped at 20 + score modifier (since each two would basically be heightening the spell a level). It would also make the psion choose between nuking and making sure it stuck.

In Unearthed Arcana, when a wizard is using spell points, the DCs don't scale as he puts more into it to get more damage (and it also has a cap). Those two things should have been added.

But other than Mind Thurst and Energy spells, what else is broken? Those two things get thrown around by people who think they are broken, but never go anywhere else. I agree with you that they need fixing, but those two are easy to fix.

1) When you pick "Energy X", you pick a single energy type. You don't get to switch between them as you wish. You pick "Cold Missile" and you only get cold. If you want fire, you have to pick it agian. That makes it the equivalent of the wizard type spells.

2) Damage dice cannot exceed your manifester level. Wizards and Sorcerers have the problem, so psionics should also. Overchannel can increase this, but then agian, you're taking damage. Also, make Overchannel expend your Psionic Focus. Now you can't overchannel and metapsionic something.

3) Save DCs cannot be increased by augmentation, period. Add in a Heighten Power metapsionic feat that works the same as everyone else. If you don't increase the save DCs, your mindthurst gets locked in around DC 21 or so (assuming you started with a 18, +5 for levels, +6 item, +1 from somewhere). Now making a DC 21 to avoid ALL the 20d10 damage isn't that bad. Hell, a fighter with a Cloak of Resistance +6 have a +12 BASE. That means 9 or better. Start adding things (Iron Will, etc) and its getting lower. Then agian, I also think Mind Thrust should be capped at some point, but I'm not getting into that now, first the energy stuff adjustments...

Edit: Actually listing ways to fix some powers. All these assume that the augmentations have be changed as mention above.

Energy Ball: Nothing really, just a big fireball. WIthout the saves increasing, its not really overpowered.

Energy Bolt: same as Energy Ball. Its Lightning Bolt, but psionic.

Energy Burst: A zero-range Energy Ball. No changes needed.

Energy Cone: No changes, Cone of Cold.

Energy Current: This is one that bugs me. First, 9d6 to one and half to another is really nasty. For a 5th level power this is pretty over the top. I say start it at 6d6 for primary, 3d6 for secondary, and its more in tune with what it should be. Then the inceasing in dice would make it more in line (at 20th it would be 16d6 primary, 8d6 secondary). Well, limit it to that, since 17d6 would be the highest it could go.

Energy Missile: Wow, where to start. First, make it start a 1d6 to five targets, since 3d6 to 5 is nowhere close to what a Wizard/Sorcerer can do. Second, make the damage max out at 7d6 (6d6 is the average of 5d4+5, but this is second level, so eh, give a little bigger cap). Then its not so sick.

Energy Push: This one is actually okay, since each additional die is costing 2 pp. But no save increases.

Energy Retort: This is too long of a power (duration), but its not that bad.

Energy Stun: This isnt that bad, except the double save. Make additional dice cost 2 instead of one. Increasing the save is insane on this one.

Energy Wall: Eh, in line with nother changes.

Energy Wave: Same as Energy Wall.
------
But another change is the energy bonuses

Cold: Fort only. No damage bonus.
Electricity: +2 to penetrate power resistance. No save bonus.
Fire: Okay, why not give +1 to damage. A lot of things have fire resistance.
Sonic: ACTUALLY BALANCED!

Those are my suggestions, and how I'm going to implement them in my games. Mind Thurst is another issue, but I've got crap to do, so I'll mention how I changed it later.

 

[DemonWolfZero]

When I next run someone using Psionics, I'm gonna allow built in DC scaling, but nerf individual powers. Oh, and let me get the book real quick and show you a few more things I find overpowered.

Elan Resistance ability, if abused is over-the-top. One way to do it is to be an Elan Psion/Illithid slayer. That way you become a Psion that lost one manifester level, gains full BAB for 10 levels and has a permanent Mind-blank on them, who can also ignore 622 points of damage a day base.

The ridiculously high pp total that a Psion gets, that translates into SEVENTEEN effectively 10th level spell slots if you burn them all on your 6 9th level powers known.

The combination of Overchannel and Talented. While costing you two feats, it allows you to expend focus to negate the 5d8 you would take from adding 3 manifester levels to a power. This is limited to only 3rd level powers or below, but this is made extremely ignore-worthy given the fact that Mind thrust is 1st level, but can effectively be 12th level by your 20th Psion level.

Various uses of Expanded Knowledge which can be negated by an intelligent DM that take advantage of the fact that there are worthwhile powers on the PsiWar list, that while high-level for a PsiWar, are piddly-leveled for a Psion. Force those using Expanded Knowledge to take it from the list in which it appears at highest level.

Animal Affinity as a buff power, balanced out by the fact that the Psychic Warrior and then the Egoist (in that order) are supposed to be Kings of Auto-Buffs, but unbalanced by the fact that a Psion or Wilder can get access to them and become a Wizard with all 6 stat-boosters in one slot.

Assimilate - 9th level power that does 20d6 to a touched living target. If you don't die, you give the manifester temporary hp equal to half damage done for an hour. If you DO die, you give the manifester temp hp equal to total damage dealt AND a +4 bonus to each ability score for an hour. There's a couple other things, but the stat boost is the big one. There's nothing about this power that doesn't let you do the classic, "My character has a Psicrystal, a staff, and a bag full of rats!" trick.

Astral Construct - customizable "summoned" monsters that can't be Dismissed, which is the only anti-"summoned creature" spell that Arcane and Divine casters have? Yeah. Look into the Constructor PrC while you're at it

I'd mention the Psionic versions of Charm and Dominate, but Psions are supposed to be Gods of Mind-control anyways, so I find it fine that they have Charm Person and Charm Monster in the same power. Oh, and the ability to keep someone charmed for days at a time... Dominate is the same way, only I think there's also an "affect a second target" augmentation, so it effectively also has "Mass" rolled into it.

I'd go on, but I have that much to point out from A-C. I haven't even gotten to my new favorite example of broken Psionics, the Illithid Slayer, though I did mention it.

Cheers all.

 

[Tux the Penguin]

Elan are trumpeted around as this broken class, but rather it is simply a class that will allow you to stop damage once a round... from one source. I know, because Trevor and I went around on this last time I saw him. Yes, you could prevent 622 points, but its on the next successful attack. So you simply hit the Elan with multiple attacks in a round. They can only do it once in a round.

The PP isn't that bad when you look at the wizard gets. If you were to break them down into individual levels, the wizard actually gets more spells per day. Now, the psion wins since he can bash them all into high level powers, but I'll get to that later.

Overchannel, as I said before, should require you to expend your psionic focus. The mixture of it with Talented was a bad combination, but one that's easy to change. Instead of "third level or lower" change it to "when you use less than five power points." On top of that, I don't really like the feat, especially since most psionic attacks are low level.

Okay, since you brought up Mind Thurst, I'll mention my changes to it. First, the DC doesn't increase beyond 11+Int. Its permanently a 1st level power. Sorry, but psionics are going to abide by the same rules that wizards and the others abide by. Your 1st level powers become less effecient at higher levels. Second, Mind Thurst, as well as other powers, get capped depending on their level. 1st: 5 dice. 2nd: 7 dice. 3rd: 9 dice. Etc, etc. Still, Mind Thurst is nice (5d10 is nothing to sneeze at) but its not that good either. Especially being a Will Negates power. That effectively puts Mind Thurst into a good 1st level power without being too bad.

Expanded Knowledge is a BAD feat. I limited it to "any power you could normally learn." No psion learning pychic warrior feats, or a Kinetist learning Telepath Discipline powers. That feat is a glaring example of the fact that they didn't play test.

Animal Affinity has always been a problem, but to give yourself a +4 to all abilities, you're spending 23 PP, only possible if you overchannel at 20th level. Plus, you're blowing nearly 5% of your total power points, especially for a power that only lasts for 20 minutes (23 if overpowered). That's not that long.

Even Assimiliate isn't that bad. It only lasts for one hour. Its also a 9th level power. Remember, at this point the Wizard has Meteor Swarm. 20d6 to one target (which gets a save for half damage) is still less than the 24d6 that Meteor Swarm can do. Actually, you could have all four spheres at a single creature, forcing them to take 8d6 physical damage, and then has no chance to avoid the 24d6 of damage.

Astral Constructs have always been better, which annoys me, but I can deal with that easily. They are good, but they aren't the end-all be-all power. At each level a similiarly powerful nuke spell can destroy them in a round. Especially a wizard who is ticked (or another psion).

Charm isn't as nasty of a spell if you don't increase the save DC. So you can charm dragons for days at a time? Its still a save DC of 11+Int/Cha.

The biggest key to balancing psinoics is to remove the DC scaling, or at least slow it down by a lot.

 

[Thunderbird459]

Noooooooo! Not another thread-hijacking debate over psionics! Make it stop!

Since I don't feel like reading it all; was there anything relevant to the campaign in the last 6 posts?