Drow - good for anything?

[Aus_Snow]

Oh, one other little thing:

-2 HD, *and* -1 HP per HD.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think they were designed as foes first and playable second. Many races don't have appropriate LAs, or aren't really even balanced with a listed LA score (eg overpowered in some areas, underpowered in others, perhaps barely playable due to something like fast healing or regeneration, etc).

Just because drow have an LA doesn't mean you have "permission" to use them. They're not in the Player's Handbook, they're in the Monster Manual. Balancing their LA properly might even mean making them lame as monsters, and there's no reason why they should have more love lavished on them than anything else in the MM.

 

[geosapient]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803

That's your incantrix. The idea behind it is to use the improve metamagic and a bunch of other things to reduce metamagic costs down to 0, or sometimes below. I've seen builds using scorching rays that that up a cantrip slot, but have a gazillion damage pumping feats, too.

See? Drow can't pull that off as effectively.

They can't reduce the effect of a metamagic feat to less than +0 so how do you get to cast scorching ray from a cantrip slot? The spell should still use it's normal slot and if you apply a metamagic feat that has a +1 modifier it can't be reduced. So the spell would still take the next slot higher.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Just because drow have an LA doesn't mean you have "permission" to use them. They're not in the Player's Handbook, they're in the Monster Manual. Balancing their LA properly might even mean making them lame as monsters, and there's no reason why they should have more love lavished on them than anything else in the MM.

They're also in the Realms as a race, not a monster. Well, both perhaps.

I know, that's not core. But it's pretty damn close, and WotC had obviously decreed at that stage that Drow were somehow playable in terms of relative power.

I don't agree. IMO, they make poor fighters, poor rogue-types, poor casters of any persuasion, and rather sorry "gishes" / other hybrids.

 

[mmu1]

I think SR is frequently underrated, in particular for non-casters like fighters or rogues. At lower levels, it might not make up for all you lose as a Drow, but when you get to 10th-12th level and serious magic starts to fly around (and many monsters have abilities scarier than what any normal caster could come up with), it becomes a huge asset.

I don't know whether I'd have the patience to play a drow from a low level on, but it's definitely worth it.

 

[Sejs]

Drow - good for anything?

Well, they do give you something to complain about from time to time. That's got to count for something.

 

[kaomera]

I know, that's not core. But it's pretty damn close, and WotC had obviously decreed at that stage that Drow were somehow playable in terms of relative power.

That statement is no more "obvious" than the idea that drow are somehow unplayable as-is. If, in your opinion, they are so bad, then either don't play one, or else house-rule them.

 

[Aus_Snow]

If, in your opinion, they are so bad, then either don't play one, or else house-rule them.

I'll do as I please, thanks, regardless of your "advice", for want of a more precise term.

My house rules are in fact many and varied, and yes, 'Drow' are actually playable the way they've ended up here. To those who wish to play them as they are in the core rules, or Realms, or wherever else, I take no issue with that. They are clearly underpowered with any kind of class levels at all, but to each their own.

Incidentally, power isn't the first thing I consider when selecting character options. FWIW.

 

[Felix]

Oh, one other little thing:

-2 HD, *and* -1 HP per HD.

To be fair, the drow has commensurate benefits.

+1 DC for Wizard or Sorcerer spells.
+1 extra Spell/day for Wizards and Sorcerers.
+1 Skill point per HD
+1 AC
+1 Ref Save
+2 Will Save (v spells and SLA's)

I am not contending that the Drow is a better caster than a human, merely that the drow do get nice benefits associated with the admittedly painful drawbacks you continue to cite.

Human, 7th Wizard, has 4th level spells, and 5 feats.
Drow 5th Wizard has 3rd level spells, and 3 feats.

Human 9th Wizard has 5th level spells, and 6 feats
Drow 7th Wizard has 4th level spells, and 4 feats

Human 11th Wizard has 6th level spells, and 7 feats
Drow 9th Wizard has 5th level spells, and 5 feats

The human has a 60% chance to affect the drow with his SR-yes spells. If he uses both of the extra feats he gains for Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, there's still a 20% chance that the Drow won't even feel a thing from your spells.

Yes, there are ways around that, but I thought reminding everyone that a baseline 40% chance to completely disregard most hostile magics of equivalent level would be highly valuable.

I believe the pattern is obvious, and I know which of these looks better to me.

I'd have the human too, for preference, but I don't think the choice is as obvious as you make it out to be.

If you start at CR 20, perhaps a Drow is acceptable. If you play from level 1, or 3, I guess, it is a painful while before you hold your own.

Well, sure. When it's a low HD/LA ratio, every LA race suffers, but their strengths often make up for it. I'd say a drow's do, considering how obnoxious it is to fight the buggers in their home turf.

 

[Felix]

Can anyone make a drow PC that would be better than a human? Anyone? I know I have been posting threads over and over again about how drow LA is too high, and I always get "but it isn't! They have SR, and good abilites, and darkvision out to 120 feet!" To which I could make counterarguments, but nobody would care. So what are drow good for? Obviously not spellcasting. What can they use their great abilities to excel at?

Note: Without LA buyoff, the Monster Manual version.

Drow will be much more effective in completely dark environments where they won't have to spend any resources on lighting like their human counterparts. Sure, humans can cast Darkvision, but how many times per day? Humans can light torches, but does that not paint a target for everything else that doesn't need light to see?

It seems trite to say it, but drow will be a much better race to play when it's permanently dark, no matter the class. It has less to do with the mechanical balance of the races, and much more to do with the environment.

That being said, they were made to work in the Underdark. They work wonderfully there, but have problems when they are brought out into the Sun; no drow is going to do well adventuring with Humans on the surface, at least not as well as some other surface race will.