Drow - good for anything?

[Felix]

Well, sure. If you want CdG, then Hideous Laughter doesn't help. If you want, "I'll deal with you later", then Hideous Laughter is arguably better.

 

[Seeten]

I assume that your decision to offer the drow a spell that doesn't allow a saving throw was purposeful? Or did you just not read the spell? EDIT: Considering that Flame Arrow is a 3rd level spell that enchants 50 arrows to deal +1d6 fire damage with no save, I'd say you were relying on memory. Which proved inaccurate. /EDIT

Another comparison would be a Human's Hold Person compared to the Drow's Hideous Laughter, since both apply virtually the same effect. It's a wash: the Human, who has access to better spells really doesn't come out on top here.

When that same human gains a couple he has mass hold person, while the drow doesnt. Spell levels make ENORMOUS differences, and claiming they dont doesnt bolster your position, it weakens it.

 

[Grog]

Right, so their saves are generally as high as a character of the same ECL.

Well, except for their Fort save (arguably the most important save in the game), which will be 2 points worse at any given level.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Except due to their terrible HD and HP, they make terrible foes, too

How so? As enemies, they have a CR of their class levels +1, which seems about right. The SR, darkvision, and racial stat bonuses make them about CR +1 more dangerous than elf foes of the same level.

Sure low hitpoints are their weakness as enemies, but every monster needs a weakness, right? Makes a nice switch-up from all those high con bruisers you see.

 

[Grog]

When that same human gains a couple he has mass hold person, while the drow doesnt. Spell levels make ENORMOUS differences, and claiming they dont doesnt bolster your position, it weakens it.

True. If you're playing a Drow Sorceror, at 5th level you're still casting first level spells. But you're casting them at +1 DC! Woo hoo! Go you!

 

[Grog]

Thinking about this some more, it seems to me that the Drow could use some sort of reverse LA buyoff system, where their LA actually increases as they rise in level. The way I see it, if they're played with a +2 LA all the way through, they're completely gimped at low levels, they take a significant hit in power at medium-high levels, and when they finally max out (19th-20th level) they're probably balanced. At least if they're playing spellcasting classes.

 

[Darklone]

I still think drow spellcasters are more nerfed than drow fighter/rogue builds.

The lack of hitpoints hurts a lot, but less with classes with a better HD.

 

[Seeten]

You are very much correct

 

[Victim]

How so? As enemies, they have a CR of their class levels +1, which seems about right. The SR, darkvision, and racial stat bonuses make them about CR +1 more dangerous than elf foes of the same level.

Sure low hitpoints are their weakness as enemies, but every monster needs a weakness, right? Makes a nice switch-up from all those high con bruisers you see.

Of course, NPC capabilities are often lacking in the first place compared to normal monsters (a planetar is CR 16, but casts like a 17 cleric with better BaB and other racial bennies), so using a race that cripples their HP is just compounding the problem. "CR 15" enemy NPC with around 30 HP ala some of the sample NPCs for WotC PrCs are kind of ridiculous.

 

[WarlockLord]

And considering how hard it is for casters to increase their saving throws (+1 is a feat), I wouldn't sneeze at it like you do.

Oh? Take a 3rd level human wiz vs. 1st level drow. Second level spells balance out the DC. And so on, until you hit 18th level. By which time, if you're smart, you will have made a new character.

Secondly, the caster not only has to have access to Conjuration spells, but has to have them Known or Prepared and has to realize you have Spell Resistance before they resort to the "SR: no" spells. (Unless they were going to cast Conjuration spells anyway, in which case it doesn't matter if you have SR or not: you'll be puddled either way.) Even if that only takes one or two rounds for enemy casters to figure that out, it's a round they're not spending doing something that will hurt you.

Um...ok.

1. Most Primary Casters will prepare/know spells to deal with the threat of SR, because any smart spellcaster will worry about that.

2. Could you explain why someone, upon seeing a drow, won't immediately think "drow!"? What can you confuse a drow with? They're very distinctive, and everyone knows they have SR (anyone who needs to worry about it, anyway). Round one, here comes the orb volley. And you're dead because your hitpoints are crap. YAY!!! Woo hoo! Along with your spell level lag, caster level decrease, and lack of good Fort saves, you have crap for hitpoints! GO YOU! Now go out there and own that BBEG.

Oh, that's right, you can't.