Drow - good for anything?

[Felix]

When that same human gains a couple he has mass hold person, while the drow doesnt. Spell levels make ENORMOUS differences, and claiming they dont doesnt bolster your position, it weakens it.

Ideally, it makes as much of a difference as SR, better stats, darkvision, +2 Will saves etc does. As it works out, the disadvantage is much greater at the lower levels when the LA comprises a large proportion of the character's ECL. As levels are gained, the LA means less, the lost HD mean less, the loss of a spell level means less, the increased ability points means less. Everything generally will be of less importance as you increase levels.

This is not the case for the Drow's SR, which improves as the character levels up.

You mentioned Hold Person, Mass, a 7th level spell. Your human caster is 13th level and the drow is 11th +2LA. At this point the effect of the lost HD will have been reduced. Both characters will have selected most of the feats they need to flesh out their characters. The % difference in skill ranks will not be as large as it was at 1st and 3rd level. The drow will still retain all those static bonuses and drawbacks he got at 1st level and they will impact his character less at this point. His SR will have increased to 22, which is quite reasonable.

Between the two, the human will be a better spellcaster, I do not argue that point. To argue that a lower-level caster is better than a higher one is absurd; fortunately I was saying that the drow recieve some benefits that make up for the loss of caster levels, which includes the +1 to DC, +1 skill point, +2 Will saves, etc.

I argue that the drow will be equivalent in overall effectiveness as the human. And I do make allowances that if the drow adventures with 5 guys holding torches, one of his natural advantages is wasted; this does not mean that 120' Darkvision is worthless to begin with.

After all, that's what the LAs are designed to do: make the more powerful races equivalent in power to their base-race counterparts.

Oh? Take a 3rd level human wiz vs. 1st level drow. Second level spells balance out the DC. And so on, until you hit 18th level. By which time, if you're smart, you will have made a new character.

I don't understand what your point is in saying, "You're smart if you change your character." How does this advance your argument?

1. Most Primary Casters will prepare/know spells to deal with the threat of SR, because any smart spellcaster will worry about that.

Once a spellcaster realizes he's dealing with SR, I quite agree that he will immediately move to counter it. But if it takes one or two rounds for the caster to realize it, then you have a one or two round advantage, and the enemy caster has lost one or two of his (likely) more powerful spells.

If the enemy caster begins with Conjuration, then he'll never know that he has to overcome SR, and may later cast an "SR: yes" spell which the drow now has an opportunity to ignore. So the benefit from SR may not come immediately, but it may come in handy later.

2. Could you explain why someone, upon seeing a drow, won't immediately think "drow!"? What can you confuse a drow with? They're very distinctive, and everyone knows they have SR (anyone who needs to worry about it, anyway). Round one, here comes the orb volley. And you're dead because your hitpoints are crap. YAY!!! Woo hoo! Along with your spell level lag, caster level decrease, and lack of good Fort saves, you have crap for hitpoints! GO YOU! Now go out there and own that BBEG.

Oh, that's right, you can't.

If the character had no prior experience with Drow and didn't have ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (since Drow live in the Underdark, I believe that would be the proper skill), then I don't see that they would know anything about drow automatically at all. Unless the PC had somehow gotten ahold of a Monster Manual.

But even so, assuming that drow are automatically recognized as SR-possessing, if this is how they're seen, I think this is pretty good incentive for a drow to disguise themselves. There are many and varied ways to do so, and a smart Drow (+2 Int) would look into protecting his identity from all the surface dwellers who know how to bypass their natural defenses.

Please dispense with the snark.

 

[Sejs]

So the problem is the LA.

The LA is a result of having the Kewl Powerz.

So either, you want the Kewl Powerz without the LA, or you want both the LA and the Powerz to disappear... in which case you're just an elf with a different culture and coloration.

So which is it?

 

[Seeten]

Which includes the +1 to DC, +1 skill point, +2 Will saves, etc.

Humans get a bonus feat, if the +1 DC is important, they can get that +1 DC back. +1 skill point comes free for a human, no LA needed. So that leaves +2 will saves.

I wont say +2 will saves is useless, because thats spurious, but I believe you vastly overestimate some of the drow advantages. Also, we ARE comparing them to humans, who are one of the very strongest LA 0 races IMO.

As I said earlier, SR isnt so great in play. NPC's are generally higher CL, and thus have it easier to beat SR, standard action to lower CR for Cleric to heal you. It just isnt as hot as some make it out to be.

 

[Felix]

Humans get a bonus feat, if the +1 DC is important, they can get that +1 DC back. +1 skill point comes free for a human, no LA needed. So that leaves +2 will saves.

It leaves:

+2 Will saves
+1 Reflex saves
-1 Fort saves
-1 HP/level
+1 AC
+1 on Int-based checks
+1 on Cha-based checks
+1 on Dex-based checks
120' Darkvision
Immunity to Sleep spells and effects
+2 Listen, Search, Spot & automatic Search checks.
Dancing Lights, Darkness and Faerie Fire 1/day
SR 11+Class levels
Light Blindness​

And the question is if all of that is worth two HD and their associated benefits. I'd say it's a wash. Which is the aim of the LA: to be a wash.

I wont say +2 will saves is useless, because thats spurious, but I believe you vastly overestimate some of the drow advantages. Also, we ARE comparing them to humans, who are one of the very strongest LA 0 races IMO.

I do agree that Humans are indeed a powerful race. Would it be fair to say that humans have the advantage above ground where 120' darkvision doesn't help (as much) and instances of Light Blindness are much more likely? Would it also be fair to say that in the Underdark the drow have the advantage?

As I said earlier, SR isnt so great in play. NPC's are generally higher CL, and thus have it easier to beat SR, standard action to lower CR for Cleric to heal you. It just isnt as hot as some make it out to be.

Your claim that NPCs are generally higher level is something I take exception to. Yes, there are going to be powerful spellcasters that will not have too much trouble with the Drow's SR. But I submit that an equivalent-level NPC Wizard combatant is a standard encounter for a party of 4. I'll also submit that in most spellcaster encounters I've had, the enemy spellcaster is protected by several minions.

So for a 10th level party, an ECL equivalent encounter with 4 enemies will result in 4 6th level enemies. If you want to make it a little harder, an 8th level caster and 3 6th level bodyguards. In any case, enemy casters will only have a higher caster level than the drow in very challenging encounters. Which is fine, but I'd say that it's more rare than the times when the drow will encounter casters of equal or lower caster level.

---

Yes, it is annoying to have to lower your SR to get healed. I won't argue with that. I suggest you stay out of harm's way in the first place. Which, possessing a 2HD deficit, you'll be wanting to do anyway.

 

[Seeten]

It leaves:

+2 Will saves
+1 Reflex saves
-1 Fort saves
-1 HP/level
+1 AC
+1 on Int-based checks
+1 on Cha-based checks
+1 on Dex-based checks
120' Darkvision
Immunity to Sleep spells and effects
+2 Listen, Search, Spot & automatic Search checks.
Dancing Lights, Darkness and Faerie Fire 1/day
SR 11+Class levels
Light Blindness

Thats a nice looking list isnt it? I want to break it down, though.

+2 Will saves <----------- quality. I wont say worth a feat, because I dont generally think Iron Will is worth a feat, but its clearly of great value.
+1 Reflex saves <--- Not worth much
-1 Fort saves <----- Highly undesirable, obviously
-1 HP/level <-------- worse, the lower your Die size gets, for D4 classes, clearly terrible.
+1 AC <--- better than +0. Dodge is another feat I dont put much stock in, even when houseruled to not have to declare, and usable against multiple enemies.
+1 on Int-based checks <--- meh
+1 on Cha-based checks<--- meh
+1 on Dex-based checks<--- meh
120' Darkvision<----- Some people really value it, and it depends on how you run your games. Very tight rules = VERY powerful. Less tight, and this can become almost worthless. Its not great for spellcasters, Darkvision, the spell, can be permancied for a token xp amount.
Immunity to Sleep spells and effects<--- meh
+2 Listen, Search, Spot & automatic Search checks. <--- this benefits the whole party, but really. Whatever.
Dancing Lights, Darkness and Faerie Fire 1/day <--- lol
SR 11+Class levels <--- Look, I like it. I like having SR, I'll take feats to improve it, even. I'll add Paladin to it, with 22 charisma, for unbeatable saves, too, but on its own, it isnt so hot, at least not in games where I played.
Light Blindness <--- another disad, but it doesnt make me cry, either.

If we were arguing whether they make a great Paladin, I wouldnt be nearly as negative. Its one of the few classes I believe they can really make work. Its rough early, with poor HP, and the level hit, but by level 4-6 they start to really make that combo work.

Spellcasters are much more problematic. They arent nearly as powerful as a spellcaster with no LA. LA killed caster level and if people are as stressed by Sorcerer being a level back only at odd levels, imagine being 2 levels back, 3 if you make a Sorc! Its ugly. I am not telling you you couldnt play a Drow, or that it'll ruin the game, Wizards are one of the strongest classes in the game. You could also play a human and die twice and be fine, but stacked against a human 2 levels higher, they just dont matchup. The stuff that really hurts them, a blade in the face, is just not mitigated by any of their advantages.

They are FAR FAR easier to kill than a normal mage.

7th level human mage: Con 14. 32 hp.
5th level drow mage: Con 12. 18 hp.

The human is out of 1 shot range, really. I mean, he isnt quite, but without a huge crit, he's pretty safe. The Drow is pretty much killable by any attack.

My paladin, who is not built for damage, can kill the drow mage without a crit. with a single attack with a longsword. And is a level 7 character also, no LA.

Thats very dangerous. I dont think they make much of a spellcaster at +2 LA for a wide variety of reasons.

 

[wildstarsreach]

It leaves:

+2 Will saves
+1 Reflex saves
-1 Fort saves
-1 HP/level
+1 AC
+1 on Int-based checks
+1 on Cha-based checks
+1 on Dex-based checks
120' Darkvision
Weapon Proficiencies
Immunity to Sleep spells and effects
+2 Listen, Search, Spot & automatic Search checks.
Dancing Lights, Darkness and Faerie Fire 1/day
SR 11+Class levels
Light Blindness​

And the question is if all of that is worth two HD and their associated benefits. I'd say it's a wash. Which is the aim of the LA: to be a wash.


I do agree that Humans are indeed a powerful race. Would it be fair to say that humans have the advantage above ground where 120' darkvision doesn't help (as much) and instances of Light Blindness are much more likely? Would it also be fair to say that in the Underdark the drow have the advantage?


Your claim that NPCs are generally higher level is something I take exception to. Yes, there are going to be powerful spellcasters that will not have too much trouble with the Drow's SR. But I submit that an equivalent-level NPC Wizard combatant is a standard encounter for a party of 4. I'll also submit that in most spellcaster encounters I've had, the enemy spellcaster is protected by several minions.

So for a 10th level party, an ECL equivalent encounter with 4 enemies will result in 4 6th level enemies. If you want to make it a little harder, an 8th level caster and 3 6th level bodyguards. In any case, enemy casters will only have a higher caster level than the drow in very challenging encounters. Which is fine, but I'd say that it's more rare than the times when the drow will encounter casters of equal or lower caster level.

---

Yes, it is annoying to have to lower your SR to get healed. I won't argue with that. I suggest you stay out of harm's way in the first place. Which, possessing a 2HD deficit, you'll be wanting to do anyway.

+2 Will saves
+2 Int, +1 on Int-based checks
+2 Chr, +1 on Cha-based checks
120' Darkvision
Dancing Lights, Darkness and Faerie Fire 1/day
SR 11+Class levels
Light Blindness

All else that you pointed out which is underlined is already included in an LA +0 race and should not be considered for argument here. To get these bonuses you would have to have the following.

A +2 to will saves is equal to a feat. (Iron Will)
A +2 to Int is equal to 2 epic feats increasing Int and the extra skill point per level you get.
Same for Charisma.
In addition, either of these stats add additional spells if a sorcerer/bard/wizard or other spellcaster that depends on them.
Dark Vision os easily worth a feat. This allows so much for a thieving characters.
Each at will ability though weak is still a feat. That's three feats there.
SR, people say that this is worthless. I disagree. It still gives one additional defense against spells. Still if it only works 20% of the time, that is still 1 in 5 spells that flat out didn;t work. This is easily worth at least 2 feats. And yes, this is taking into account that you have to use a standard action to lower you SR for healing or other beneficial spells.
Light Blindness means that you spend one feat to eliminate it.

In effect you get the net benefit of 4 epic feats and 6 feats. That this isn't worth at the most an LA +2. It is a weak LA+2 but still an LA +2. I still think that a change of +2 to Int and Cha if it is changed to either a +2 to to one stat only would make this a solid and strong LA +1.

 

[Seeten]

Wild:

By that logic Mystic Theurge is unbalanced, as the price of getting both Arcane and Divine spellcaster progression costs 20 epic feats and spell slots.

It means nothing, and has also not stood the test of time.

It doesnt matter how many "non associated feats" this costs, or awards. Especially with the quality of feat you have up there.

If I told you that I made a new race that was like human, but gave you 10 extra feats, and then you came to find out it was ten +2 to 2 skill feats, all for different skills, and you were LA +6 due to the 10 feats, you wouldnt call that balanced, I dont think.

If the feat is power attack, and your a barbarian, thats GREAT.

If the feat is power attack and your a mage, who cares?

If your a mage, you dont really need Iron Will, its already your best save. BUT, you sure care about that -1 fort save. That hurts where your already weak.

 

[Felix]

Thats a nice looking list isnt it? I want to break it down, though.

I mentioned the whole list not as a value judgement but rather for the sake of thoroughness; you remarked that all that was left in comparison to a human was a +2 Will and that isn't the case.

I'm not going to go through all of your comments on the characteristics, but I will comment on +2 Will Saves: it is worth a feat. Iron Will is a feat and provides exactly that. For Fighters and Barbarians it is one of the best feats they can take; Drow get it in recompense for missing 2 HD.

All else that you pointed out which is underlined is already included in an LA +0 race and should not be considered for argument here. To get these bonuses you would have to have the following.

Seeten and I were already involved in a discussion comparing the Drow to a Human, thus the list provided. Saying "other races get it" doesn't mean it's not a benefit when compared to a human.

As it happens, we agree, if not in methodology then in conclusion, that Drow are worht their +2 LA. They are not a very strong +2 LA, but they don't have to be. They'll hang in there.

 

[Seeten]

I think they are worth their +2 LA only when highlighting their strength, which is their SR and ability scores. I think paladin is the only path that truly does this. I dont think they make good spellcasters, which is their FC, and their flavor.

As a Paladin, they are worth +2 LA. Huge saves + SR is very much worth it, and a 22 charisma around level 8 pre buff is huge for divine feats, and the like. I think as a design, they fail the test, which is, if we make an iconic drow, is it the equal of a human. An iconic drow cleric does not match up against a human cleric, nor does a Drow Wizard matchup with a Human Wizard. The fact that a Drow Paladin in many ways is better than a Human Paladin is just weird, and partially due to their HD type.

I dont completely disagree with you, Felix, you do raise some good points, and we arent comparing the Drow to Half-Elves, either, who suck in nearly every way.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Wild:

By that logic Mystic Theurge is unbalanced, as the price of getting both Arcane and Divine spellcaster progression costs 20 epic feats and spell slots.

It means nothing, and has also not stood the test of time.

It doesnt matter how many "non associated feats" this costs, or awards. Especially with the quality of feat you have up there.

If I told you that I made a new race that was like human, but gave you 10 extra feats, and then you came to find out it was ten +2 to 2 skill feats, all for different skills, and you were LA +6 due to the 10 feats, you wouldnt call that balanced, I dont think.

If the feat is power attack, and your a barbarian, thats GREAT.

If the feat is power attack and your a mage, who cares?

If your a mage, you dont really need Iron Will, its already your best save. BUT, you sure care about that -1 fort save. That hurts where your already weak.

Classes and races are apples and oranges in this case. The idea of an LA +X is based on balance from the standard of humans.