Drow - good for anything?

[Seeten]

Okay, how's about a Drow Battle Sorcerer?

+2 Cha gives bonus spells and adds to spell DC.
+2 Dex helps when you're limited to light armor (medium with Battle Caster feat).
+2 Int gives another maxed skill.
-2 Con is alleviated by HD d8

Caster level is 2 behind, but the spells aren't the only schtick for the Battle Sorcerer. The reduced hp can be alleviated by Improved Toughness (+1 hp/HD), or maybe by taking the Stalwart Sorcerer substitution level from Complete Mage (+2 hp per Sorcerer level). Or a toad familiar (+3 hp).

The analysis Seeten posted is neat, but there a lot of ways you can work around some issues. For intance, for every class that gets heavy armor, Seeten mentions "+2 Dex... full plate". Well, if you have +2 Dex, you only need to put a 10 in Dex to get the maximum Dex bonus a regular full plate allows. The points you save there can be spent on Con, effectively cancelling out those modifiers. Place a 13 in Con and an 11 in Dex and you end up with 13 Dex and 11 Con. Not a huge hit by a long shot.

Klaus, I dont mean to condescend, but you are PAYING +1 LA for those unbalanced scores. Why do you pay +1 LA for the priviledge of "Well, if you have +2 Dex, you only need to put a 10 in Dex to get the maximum Dex bonus a regular full plate allows. The points you save there can be spent on Con, effectively cancelling out those modifiers. Place a 13 in Con and an 11 in Dex and you end up with 13 Dex and 11 Con. Not a huge hit by a long shot"

You paid a level adjustment to move con and dex both back to 0 via point buy? That makes no sense. Its accurate, but its part and parcel of why the race is bad for those classes.

If the stuff your paying the adjustment for doesnt help, that clearly means it isnt worth it, for that class. The ability scores are configured in such a manner that most classes cannot use the full package, and most dont even use 2 out of 3. This means +1 of your LA is completely spurious, which is why when Wizards suggested trying +1 LA drow, with the same bonus package, only a couple of classes actually benefit, and none of them are the iconic classes.

 

[Darklone]

How?
The only way I can come up with for this to happen (1d8 + CON > 2 HD + 2x CON) is for an elf arcane caster with a large CON penalty.
With a 6 CON the Drow is 1d8 - 2 (average 2.875 -- slightly high as a roll of 1 or 2 still gives on HP) and the Elf Arcane is 2d4 -4 (average 2.5).
Anything else and the Elf still has more HPs.

You're right but I wasn't thinking about averages. Now let the drow roll a little bit better than the elf... while both have a bad con (10).

I think one option to make LA less painful is to stagger it. Inflict the first LA at 2nd level (when you level up you don't actually level) and the second at 11th level (again, when you level up you don't actually level). This would balance the Drow at the levels that their advantages matter but make them playable from 1st level on. Sure, the 1st 5% of play they would be a little too good but 2nd level would sure make up for that.

You mean like the bloodlines or the dragons as PC rules? Good idea.

Actually, giving only half the hitpoints of the LAed levels might be a good short fix as well... if you want to houserule.

 

[Felix]

When playing a melee character...

Human:
STR 13 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 15 CHA 10

Dwarf
STR 13 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 8 WIS 15 CHA 8

Drow
STR 13 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 15 CHA 12

Sure, the Drow Stats are better. The Human is 2 levels up.

Human Clr3:
BAB: 2
Attack: 3
HP: 10+2d8+4 (21)
Skills: 2/level
AC: 11
Feats: 3
Fort: 4
Ref: 2
Will: 5

Dwarf Clr3:
BAB: 2
Attack: 3
HP: 11+2d8+4 (24)
AC: 11
Skills: 1/ level
Feats: 2
Fort: 6 (+2 v spells & SLA, +2 v poison)
Ref: 2 (+2 v spells & SLA)
Will: 5 (+2 v spells & SLA)

Drow Clr1:
BAB: 0
Attack: 1
HP: 9
AC: 12
Skills: 2/ level
Feats: 1
Fort: 3
Ref: 2
Will: 4 (+2 v spells & SLA)​

Yep. Clearly the dwarf is the iconic cleric, and far superior in survival-ability than the drow. The drow must stay at range, which defeats many of the cleric's abilities. He does have the 120' darkvision to do so, but the problem is attacking that far with the cleric's selection of abilities.

Now consider a Asimar:
STR 13 DEX 12 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 17 CHA 12

Is that not uniformly better than a Drow?

Aasimar Clr2
BAB: 1
Attack: 2
HP: 10+1d8+2 (16.5)
AC: 11
Skills: 1/ level
Feats: 1
Fort: 5
Ref: 1
Will: 6

Again, the drow will stay out of melee range while the Aasimar may feel more comfortable doing so. Cleric seems to be a better class for the aasimar as well.

But let's pick the exact middle of the range Level 11.

The Drow is Level 9 and casting 5th level spells. The Dwarf is Level 11, has about 15 more hit points, +2 BAB, better saves (before racial bonuses), better syngeries and cast 6th level spells at a higher caster level.

Ouch!

Yup. The drow will still hurt at ECL 11 from the 2 HD loss (although I suspect somewhat less so than he did at ECL 3). None of his ability bonuses will synergize very well with his class abilities. His racial abilities that allow him to keep distance will be wasted on the cleric class, which leans towards melee with heavy armor and Close range spells.

The degree to which the Drow as written do not synergize with the cleric class leads me to suspect that this may not be a good class to defend the idea that they are worth a +2 LA; I would still look at other classes to see how they compare before adjusting them however.

 

[Felix]

Klaus, I dont mean to condescend, but you are PAYING +1 LA for those unbalanced scores.

Assume that Dex +2, Con -2, Int +2, Cha +2 is worth +1 LA, and arrange abilities so that Dex and Con cancel each other out.

You're left with Int +2, Cha +2.

The Aasimar recieves Wis +2, Cha +2 for a +1 LA.

This seems fairly well equal, and you seemed satisfied with the aasimar's ability to survive just recently upthread.

 

[Seeten]

But isn't precisely because of those racial bonuses that the Drow gets the +2 LA in the first place? By his I mean the +2 to all spell saves (hey the same as the dwarf right?) but also the 9th class level drow has in addition SR = 20 - which is huge, especially since the character then gets to attempt saves also. Essentially the drow gets a +1 LA due to the imbalanced ability score adjustments and then another +1 due to SR.

But again, the drow array didn't really look any better, and depending, actually looked worse than the dwarf array, to me. Although I'd have moved some of the stats around, but even so, the Drow stats dont lend themself to cleric. Clerics dont need int, they often dump it, and dont need dex, they wear fullplate, and do need con, everyone does, and cha is good. So they get a good stat, 2 not useful ones, and a bad stat. Sounds bad.

Thats +1 out of your +2 Level Adjustment wasted as a Cleric.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm. I guess the iconic drow hand crossbow with its poison doesn't help to balance anything, right?

 

[Felix]

Thats +1 out of your +2 Level Adjustment wasted as a Cleric.

Agreed. Drow are rubbish as clerics. 10 core base classes to go.

 

[Seeten]

Assume that Dex +2, Con -2, Int +2, Cha +2 is worth +1 LA, and arrange abilities so that Dex and Con cancel each other out.

You're left with Int +2, Cha +2.

The Aasimar recieves Wis +2, Cha +2 for a +1 LA.

This seems fairly well equal, and you seemed satisfied with the aasimar's ability to survive just recently upthread.

I think the Aasimar is worth +1 LA as a Cleric, as it gets +2 Wisdom, and +2 Charisma, both of which are important for a CLERIC.

I also think Aasimar make great Paladins.

I think they suck and are not worth +1 LA as: Fighter. Barbarian. Rogue. Wizard. Psion. Etc.

The discussion, though, was about cleric.

You'll also note, I think Drow make excellent Paladins, worth a +2 LA as a paladin.

Clerics dont need, or use int, so now we're paying +1 of our LA for +2 charisma. I like Charisma, but not that much.

 

[Seeten]

Agreed. Drow are rubbish as clerics. 10 core base classes to go.

I did a fair appraisal of the majority of base class types a bit up thread. The only classes that excel as Drow are ones with important charisma and defensive class features that bolster the SR.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Page 18-19 of the Unearthed Arcana has a rule to adjust and reduce the level adjust. You guys might take a look for further discussion.