D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[delericho]

But this is exactly why people push back so hard on topics like this. The reasoning behind this kind of analysis of D&D eventually leads you to the logical conclusion that D&D to its core, perhaps even RPGs in general, is an immoral activity. I think there are deeply flaws assumptions behind this kind of thinking that just weaken our ability to make interesting and entertaining art or games

I find I can't get past the partial nature of the fixes. As long as they took the view that everything was strictly fictional and had absolutely no bearing on the real world, I didn't have an issue - orcs were orcs, not a stand-in for anyone in the real world, so depict them however you want.

That said, I can certainly understand why others too issue with that approach, and can understand WotC feeling the need to make a change. But when doing that, I then needed them to apply it consistently. If orcs are a stand-in for people in the real world, then I have a problem with them being depicted as anything other than human.

Similarly, I have a problem with them removing orcs and drow from the MM on the grounds that they're humanoids, while reclassifying other intelligent creatures as fey, or fiends, or otherwise as monsters so they can still be slaughtered casually.

Basically, they've adopted just enough of a more sensitive approach to make me really uncomfortable with ever coming back to the game.

 

[Bedrockgames]

That said, enjoy your game. Clearly, WotC is bending over backwards to allow you to kill goblins without too much n moral dilemma. I understand that is fun; I play this game too ya know. But I don't harbor any illusions that D&D is absolutely not modeling a healthy way to handle conflict between peoples, and even my noblest paladin is as soaked in blood as the most brutal despot. And if it helps people to rationalize that by making goblins less human, so be it.

I only have a few moments, but will say, I don't think it is modeling behavior. You aren't meant to emulate what happens in D&D, just like you aren't meant to emulate what happens in a Better Tomorrow or Goodfellas. What I think you are not understanding is I would agree with you: this isn't good behavior in real life. Like I said in my previous post, I don't believe in using violence to resolve conflict. So this isn't about rationalizing anything. It is about understanding that cathartic violence on screen or in a game, isn't real world violence and isn't meant to send a message that violent is good.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Aliens doesn't conflict with pacificism in any way I can see. Pulp Fiction only lightly, given the people are supposed terrible criminals, not role models or heroes.

I don't think it does either. But you could easily make arguments that it glorifies war and the military. I just picked that as a random example. The point was he could enjoy violent movies and even movies that used violence in ways he wouldn't agree with, and didn't have an issue. It wasn't a challenge to his pacifism

 

[Bedrockgames]

More telling would be something like Black Hawk Down or Zero Dark Thirty or even, away from real-world-based events, something like Extraction. I would be pretty surprised if a committed pacificist enjoyed any of those very much. I'm not saying I'd judge them or that it's "not allowed", just that I'd be surprised.

His favorite show for a while was 24, and he 100% disagreed with the politics surrounding it

 

[TiQuinn]

Aliens doesn't conflict with pacificism in any way I can see.

“I admire its purity. A survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse or delusions of morality.”

The only way to defeat the Xenomorph is kill it or escape it and none of the movies end with just escaping. They blow it out of the airlock, over and over.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Art reflects life. D&D reflects dreams of power, wealth, and danger, all with a gooey violent glaze on top. It's part of our nature. It doesn't make us any more violent than video games or football does, it just presses the same dopamine as they do.

Yes, I just think that our niche hobby is pretty harmless and our playerbase much the same. Those who are terrible people do not need the excuse of D&D to inflict harm, that is all I was saying rather sarcastically.
No ill will intended.

 

[Bedrockgames]

More telling would be something like Black Hawk Down or Zero Dark Thirty or even, away from real-world-based events, something like Extraction. I would be pretty surprised if a committed pacificist enjoyed any of those very much. I'm not saying I'd judge them or that it's "not allowed", just that I'd be surprised.

Because being a pacifist is about being a pacifist, not about what media you consume. If your beliefs in non-violence are genuine, watching predator isn't going to trigger a desire to harm people in you

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Have you seen Black Doves (Netflix)?

The Night Agent (also Netflix) does this a bit too, at least in S2 - the majority of the antagonists are much more humanized than is conventional for violent genre TV (with one wild-eyed exception, who is basically just barely short of this Key & Peele sketch), especially of the somewhat broad kind The Night Agent mostly is. One goon is so humanized he could practically be the lead of a different show.

We enjoy it and we don’t think about how maybe some of those bad guys who James Bond shoots every movie had families too.

Given how dismissive people are about real-world violence inflicted on those in other countries and so on, maybe we should though? I think movies like that absolutely do contribute to desensitization towards that, even glamourization of it and the people who do it.

D&D isn't a big issue here, but there is an uncomfortable issue with the fact that race-war creeps like it a little bit too much (albeit I think they've increasingly moved to OSR games rather than D&D, which they see as "woke", especially now).

 

[Reynard]

“I admire its purity. A survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse or delusions of morality.”

The only way to defeat the Xenomorph is kill it or escape it and none of the movies end with just escaping. They blow it out of the airlock, over and over.

There is no reason you can't treat orcs that way. It is only when we choose to apply personhood to a thing THEN treat it as something worthy of eradication that things get problematic.

Think out it this way: orcs, over the years, have evolved into "people" RPG-wise (thanks WoW!). Currently, there are a few games and other media with skeletons and zombies with personhood. If that catches on, culturally, undead will be off the "stock enemies" list too.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Because being a pacifist is about being a pacifist, not about what media you consume. If your beliefs in non-violence are genuine, watching predator isn't going to trigger a desire to harm people in you

Interesting that you avoided the examples I gave, and instead went for another fantasy/SF movie with little connection to reality. I think it's a little more complicated than you're saying, and not at all about "triggering" anything.