D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Remathilis]

But why do goblins, kobolds, and so many other former humanoids still need monster statblocks if orcs, drow and duergar don't?

I've asked this question several times. No one seems to have an answer.

Because orcs and drow graduated from Monster Manual to PHB. Goblins and kobolds didn't. It's that simple. They are PC species first now.

WotC isn't saying it, so I will: humanoids are for PCs now. Other types are for monsters. Yes, NPCs can humanoids and PCs can be other types, but the default assumptions is that. The goal is to remove the notion that PCs are supposed to slaughter other humanoids and to instill the notion that humanoids have defined alignments and cultures. Thus they moved as many former humanoids as possible into other monster categories so they could keep them as monsters.

You can disagree with that decision (I expect you will) but this is purely a way to make it easier to kill goblins without getting into odd assumptions about genocide and free will. Goblins you are likely to fight are fey beasties no different than boggles or redcaps. Gnolls are fiends, not people will families and moral quandaries. It's their way of trying to preserve the idea these creatures roles in the game are as monsters first and foremost.

 

[Reynard]

Heres an interesting question, and I have not looked in the DMG to know: are there guidelines for making classes NPCs to fight the PCs? Like, if Orcs aren't in the MM because they are in the PHB, it would stand to reason that there was an intent to use Orc Fighters and so on.

 

[MGibster]

But why do goblins, kobolds, and so many other former humanoids still need monster statblocks if orcs, drow and duergar don't?

The only thing I can think of is that goblins and kobolds aren't a playable species. Other than that, I got nothing.

A solution to what problem? Why some and not others?

In the case of orcs, it's simply because so many younger people have come to view them as a playable species thanks to World of Warcraft. That's the long and the short of it.

WOTC patted themselves on the back for turning gnolls into fiends but their own setting, Eberron, treats them differently, along with other species like goblins and hobgoblins. Changing "humanoid" to "fey" doesn't solve the problem. It bypasses the problem.

I don't really think WotC bypassed the problem at all by classifying gnolls and fiends. So long as you have intelligent human-like creatures that are presented as almost always evil, someone is going to feel icky about it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because orcs and drow graduated from Monster Manual to PHB. Goblins and kobolds didn't. It's that simple. They are PC species first now.

WotC isn't saying it, so I will: humanoids are for PCs now. Other types are for monsters. Yes, NPCs can humanoids and PCs can be other types, but the default assumptions is that. The goal is to remove the notion that PCs are supposed to slaughter other humanoids and to instill the notion that humanoids have defined alignments and cultures. Thus they moved as many former humanoids as possible into other monster categories so they could keep them as monsters.

You can disagree with that decision (I expect you will) but this is purely a way to make it easier to kill goblins without getting into odd assumptions about genocide and free will. Goblins you are likely to fight are fey beasties no different than boggles or redcaps. Gnolls are fiends, not people will families and moral quandaries. It's their way of trying to preserve the idea these creatures roles in the game are as monsters first and foremost.

Well, I think that's pretty awful design, and more than enough reason not to give WotC my money for it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Heres an interesting question, and I have not looked in the DMG to know: are there guidelines for making classes NPCs to fight the PCs? Like, if Orcs aren't in the MM because they are in the PHB, it would stand to reason that there was an intent to use Orc Fighters and so on.

It would, but I strongly doubt it.

 

[UnknownDyson]

Because orcs and drow graduated from Monster Manual to PHB. Goblins and kobolds didn't. It's that simple. They are PC species first now.

WotC isn't saying it, so I will: humanoids are for PCs now. Other types are for monsters. Yes, NPCs can humanoids and PCs can be other types, but the default assumptions is that. The goal is to remove the notion that PCs are supposed to slaughter other humanoids and to instill the notion that humanoids have defined alignments and cultures. Thus they moved as many former humanoids as possible into other monster categories so they could keep them as monsters.

You can disagree with that decision (I expect you will) but this is purely a way to make it easier to kill goblins without getting into odd assumptions about genocide and free will. Goblins you are likely to fight are fey beasties no different than boggles or redcaps. Gnolls are fiends, not people will families and moral quandaries. It's their way of trying to preserve the idea these creatures roles in the game are as monsters first and foremost.

Agree or disagree, it's internally inconsistent.

 

[DEFCON 1]

But why do goblins, kobolds, and so many other former humanoids still need monster statblocks if orcs, drow and duergar don't?

I've asked this question several times. No one seems to have an answer.

What seems the answer to me is that any species that are in the PHB as playable are not in the Monster Manual as monsters. Seems simple enough.

Now sure, one will say that while dwarves in general are a playable species mentioned in the Dwarf section of the PHB but the specific duergar are not (unlike the drow, which are called out specifically in the Elf section)... at the end of the day, they are both dwarves. And no dwarves seem to appear in the 5E24 MM. Same way the svirfneblin I presume are not in the 5E24 Monster Manual because they are gnomes (even though they aren't mentioned by name in the Gnome section of the PHB.)

If someone wants to question why the various monsters were made into playable species in Volo's and MotM (or whatever books they were in) and thus can "be both" but the 5E24 playable species can't... that's up to them to decide.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Well, I think that's pretty awful design, and more than enough reason not to give WotC my money for it.

And more than enough reason for them to ignore all your complaints.

 

[MGibster]

I'm running a Greyhawk campaign, and I was able to easily make some changes to fit the new species paradigm. There are plenty of evil orcs in Pomarj and raiders in other areas of Flanaess and eliminating half-orcs hasn't been a problem yet.

 

[TheSword]

I think there is a simpler issue at hand here. It doesn’t make sense to divorce mechanical differences (stats) from playable races on one hand and then create monster manual entries pretending those races are fundamentally different from each other… or worse undo the position you made in the PHB by adding stat differences back into the MM. Really this was the only way to handle playable races in the system.

They’re just saying a typical drow acts like a priest acolyte now. A typical Duergar acts like a spy.

We’ve lost the lore from the book, but there is only space for so much lore in a packed book and let’s be honest whatever they put in that section would either raise merry hell with a segment of the community or be so tactful as to inspire no-one.

For those who want drow lore I refer them to excellent Menzoberranzan sourcebook. A product I loved so much I actually had the 4 part poster map of the city on my wall as a teenager.

For those who want orc lore I refer them to Orcs of Th… oh wait… no! Don’t open…