D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[ezo]

Number 2. I did not bring up animals. That was @ezo. I simply included it as an example of the bad faith goalpost shifting that permeates this conversation.

No... it was you:

Or, better yet, insert the word violent in front of any noun really. Violent sport. Violent husband. Violent animal. Funny. None of those are neutral. There is virtually nothing you can do violently that isn't negative and bad.

So, yeah... you. I responded to it because YOU brought it up as an example.

To be clear I've never shifted the goalposts as you claim. From the very beginning this has been about the idea that because orcs are savage and violent, it is okay to slaughter them on sight and that the text in Volo's does not support this assumption.

That's it. Someone being violent, or savage, is not an excuse to kill them on sight. Volo's actually specified that orcs are NOT inherently evil, like gnolls. Again, that is all.

Ok, number one. My posts are not that long. I refuse to respond when you start fisking my posts. If you want to have a conversation, do not fisk my posts.

Your choice. I choose to separate out posts because it helps me address points individually. If you don't like that, you certainly don't have to reply.

 

[Mistwell]

But, if we say a "violent bear entered the town", it is universally seen as bad. And, adding this to an animal is shifting the goal posts since animals are incapable of being good or evil.

But, adding violent to a person, just like saying violent husband, is ALWAYS bad. There is no example of adding the word violent to a person where it is seen as a good thing. And this is why this conversation will never actually make any headway because the goalposts will always be shifted. A violent animal isn't evil, so a violent person isn't evil? How is that not a false equivalence.

There's no way that this argument is being made in good faith.

Violent Klingons have gone for a drink in 10-Forward.

The violent part is, basically, redundant with Klingons. There are non-violent Klingons but they're very rare. This does not make Klingons evil though. After all, their procreation is violent.

However, this is the Klingon of later shows. Their earlier depictions were like the earlier depictions of Orcs, from Wikipedia, "Klingons were humanoids characterized by prideful ruthlessness and brutality...Klingons practiced feudalism and authoritarianism, with a warrior caste relying on slave labor and reminiscent of Ancient Sparta...While occasionally capable of honor, this depiction treated the Klingons as close to wild animals. Overall, they were shown without redeeming qualities—brutish, scheming, and murderous."

 

[Bedrockgames]

Ok, number one. My posts are not that long. I refuse to respond when you start fisking my posts. If you want to have a conversation, do not fisk my posts.

Number 2. I did not bring up animals. That was @ezo. I simply included it as an example of the bad faith goalpost shifting that permeates this conversation.

Number 3. You are hyperfocused on a single word -- violent - to the exclusion of the MOUNTAIN of verbiage around the issue. How is this not bad faith?

1. Okay, I will try not to do that. I was just making an attempt to cover each point.

2. See the quoted section below. This was your post that I was responding to. Perhaps Ezo brought it up earlier and I was unaware, or maybe there was meant to be quotes around it and you were quoting him. But here you mention violent animal, which is what I was referencing

3. How is bad faith if I say I agree with your core point about orcs being presented as evil and simply take issue with this one aspect of the argument. And the reason I take issue with it is I think it is an important detail: if we say violent is equated with evil that is going to miss a lot of violent entries and characters in fantasy who aren't: i.e. Conan is a violent barbarian but we aren't meant to see him as evil. Now I may disagree with you over evil orcs being a problem, but I do agree with you that orcs have generally been depicted as the bad guy in various editions

Give this a try.

Do you like hockey or football? Do you talk about these sports with your friends? Next time you talk about either one, insert the word violent in front of either every time. So, it's not, "Did you see the hockey game last night?" it's "Did you see the violent hockey game last night?"

Or, better yet, insert the word violent in front of any noun really. Violent sport. Violent husband. Violent animal. Funny. None of those are neutral. There is virtually nothing you can do violently that isn't negative and bad.

It's baffling that people want to pretend that dictionaries and common usage don't exist.

 

[Scribe]

Violent Klingons have gone for a drink in 10-Forward.

The violent part is, basically, redundant with Klingons. There are non-violent Klingons but they're very rare. This does not make Klingons evil though. After all, their procreation is violent.

I seem to remember an episode with Worf, that left me quite uncomfortable lol

 

[Bedrockgames]

I seem to remember an episode with Worf, that left me quite uncomfortable lol

Did it involve the Klingon Mating Ritual?

 

[Scribe]

Did it involve the Klingon Mating Ritual?

Yes I think so, but we are talking decades ago.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Violent Klingons have gone for a drink in 10-Forward.

The violent part is, basically, redundant with Klingons. There are non-violent Klingons but they're very rare. This does not make Klingons evil though. After all, their procreation is violent.

However, this is the Klingon of later shows. Their earlier depictions were like the earlier depictions of Orcs, from Wikipedia, "Klingons were humanoids characterized by prideful ruthlessness and brutality...Klingons practiced feudalism and authoritarianism, with a warrior caste relying on slave labor and reminiscent of Ancient Sparta...While occasionally capable of honor, this depiction treated the Klingons as close to wild animals. Overall, they were shown without redeeming qualities—brutish, scheming, and murderous."

lol at Klingon society being "feudal" and "authoritarian".... they're different things! Most feudal societies were not authoritarian because the complex ties of loyalty and feudal service meant no king could act without the consent of his powerful vassals. Authoritarianism emerged in the modern era...after getting rid of feudalism.

 

[Gradine]

Then do you at least see why saying orcs are inherently evil and can be slaughted on sight is, itself, evil?

And NO WHERE, does it say orcs are inherently evil. I've never claimed most orcs don't commit evil acts, and do so violently, but that does not make them evil and justify killing them on sight without cause.

If you can see that, then sure we're as close as we need to be.

I mean... that's what I've been arguing too though? Are we on the same side of this?

That said, that is what some folks have advocated for, and it has been how they've presented in the past, and that is, to use an overused term, problematic. That's the kind of thing I'm arguing against, anyway.

 

[MGibster]

Here's a thought, why not give descriptions of orcs that AREN'T primarily raiding territory and commiting violence?

The reason they were originally in the game was to serve as antagonist as their function in the game was to serve as obstacles to be overcome much like Illithids, red dragons, and rot grubs. Seeing as how they were originally intended to be used in games, it strikes me as a good enough reason not to give descriptions of orcs outside of their raiding and other violent activities. The 2024 Monster Manual doesn't include any description of the gnoll as anything other than violent robbers, so I guess they've taken the place of the orc. But it's okay because they're fiends.

 

[Voadam]

For me, this will always be the iconic image I associate with for orcs.

View attachment 395675

Evil, yes. But also with a touch of defiance and nobility.

I always thought these were hobgoblins and not orcs. Holloway's orcs are pretty cool too but look different. Really good scene either way.