D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Maxperson]

Not needed. Orcs can be assassins, infantry, priests, berserkers, scouts, pirates, and toughs, just like the other nine species in the PHB.

Let's just get rid of the interesting names and abilities, and just make everything even more vanilla kitchen sink boring. ~ WotC mantra.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I mean, I wont even get into UFC/K1/ONE or old school Muay Thai.

Are all Boxers Evil?

As a non-American I will say a lot of orc descriptions (particularly more modern ones) seem to be awfully close into making them what people commonly conceive as of American stereotypes.

Point me to the "half-elf" stat block. Or the "dragonborn" or "tiefling" stat block. I guess those races couldn't be encountered in the game because they didn't have stat blocks in the Monster Manual.

Yes, all of those should have statblocks. (like in 2E).
(By the way, there is a tiefling acrobat in keys from the golden vault, and plenty of dragonborn statblocks in Fizban's Treasury).

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Let's just get rid of the interesting names and abilities, and just make everything even more vanilla kitchen sink boring. ~ WotC mantra.

They've been applying that philosophy for any TSR-era setting they revived recently so why not make it true across the board.

 

[Maxperson]

They've been applying that philosophy for any TSR-era setting they revived recently so why not make it true across the board.

I mean, that they've been making the game worse and worse that way doesn't mean that it's a good thing that they do it more.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

@Levistus's_Leviathan can you not see the appeal and celebration of all that is orc in what you read about orcs in Volo?
I literally am excited when I read how culturally and spiritually different the orc is to the human, the dwarf and the elf. The fact that their life span is so short and thus their value system is about about aggression, immediate satisfaction and appeasing their gods. They don't have, or believe they have, the time to craft like the longer lived races...

I love that they they steal their wagons and the pride they gain from having one and how they elevate their stature by the wealth of its decor. Their superstitious nature is perfect (thinking of ways PCs could use this to their advantage when encountering them).
They commune with and celebrate different aspects of nature (strength and might), different to that of elves (grace and beauty etc). Love that trolls sometimes temporarily accompany the tribe if there is a promise of sufficient food. There is just so much gold in having a species be so different to humans - emotionally, spiritually, physically and even intellectually (higher, lower, sideways).

I will say in a post Warcraft world I would gladly welcome a sidebar which imagined orcs differently.

Anyways I'd just thought to give you a different pair of glasses because I cannot imagine reading D&D lore and constantly comparing it to RL history.

Historically there's been quite a great swath of humanity who have very much seen a "might is right" type of view as being righteous.

I'd have a read on how the Mongols saw themselves versus other cultures. Quite an alien cultural viewpoint to what a 21st century westerner might expect.

 

[delericho]

@Levistus's_Leviathan can you not see the appeal and celebration of all that is orc in what you read about orcs in Volo?
I literally am excited when I read how culturally and spiritually different the orc is to the human, the dwarf and the elf.

Um...

"Volo's Guide to Monsters" is another book that really hasn't aged well. It's not the absolute worst... but it's not thar off it.

That said, I do prefer differentiated depictions of the various peoples, rather than just saying they're all just people and leaving an undifferentiated slop.

So, "yes" to the approach... and "hell no" to the specifics.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

@Levistus's_Leviathan can you not see the appeal and celebration of all that is orc in what you read about orcs in Volo?
I literally am excited when I read how culturally and spiritually different the orc is to the human, the dwarf and the elf. The fact that their life span is so short and thus their value system is about about aggression, immediate satisfaction and appeasing their gods. They don't have, or believe they have, the time to craft like the longer lived races...

I love that they they steal their wagons and the pride they gain from having one and how they elevate their stature by the wealth of its decor. Their superstitious nature is perfect (thinking of ways PCs could use this to their advantage when encountering them).
Their whole approach is a celebration of strength and might which is different to that of elves, yet both commune with nature (in different ways ofc). Love that trolls sometimes temporarily accompany the tribe if there is a promise of sufficient food. There is just so much gold in having a species be so different to humans - emotionally, spiritually, physically and even intellectually (higher, lower, sideways).

I will say in a post Warcraft world I would gladly welcome a sidebar which imagined orcs differently.

Anyways I'd just thought to give you a different pair of glasses because I cannot imagine reading D&D lore and constantly comparing it to RL history.

I actually like the war wagons and thought the idea was interesting. I can easily think of ideas for how to work that into an adventure. Maybe the party is asked by a benevolent Orc tribe to locate their lost war wagon. Or a dwarf stronghold that was recently attacked by an Orc tribe could send them to sabotage their war wagon through some hidden weakness. I don't usually use Orcs in the standard way, but if I ever do I'll absolutely include a war wagon.

I'm a curious person. I like thinking about where ideas come from. Mostly to inspire my own worldbuilding. I'm currently writing a post for the Writing Prompt: Evil Orcs thread based on their historical roots in Beowulf and possible connection to the Roman god Orcus. I think I can give an interesting, non-standard spin on the classic D&D monster by making them undead creations of Orcus. I enjoy D&D Orcs being people Eberron-style, but wanted to challenge myself and create a version of always-evil monstrous Orcs I thought were interesting.

I think it's important to evaluate how historical ideas and biases from the real world influence our media. In D&D's case, I believe it's important to think critically about how we represent "the other" in fantasy. If you don't, you will eventually stumble yourself into an uncomfortable confluence of lore and depiction (e.g. the Hadozee incident).

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I actually like the war wagons and thought the idea was interesting. I can easily think of ideas for how to work that into an adventure. Maybe the party is asked by a benevolent Orc tribe to locate their lost war wagon. Or a dwarf stronghold that was recently attacked by an Orc tribe could send them to sabotage their war wagon through some hidden weakness. I don't usually use Orcs in the standard way, but if I ever do I'll absolutely include a war wagon.

I'm a curious person. I like thinking about where ideas come from. Mostly to inspire my own worldbuilding. I'm currently writing a post for the Writing Prompt: Evil Orcs thread based on their historical roots in Beowulf and possible connection to the Roman god Orcus. I think I can give an interesting, non-standard spin on the classic D&D monster by making them undead creations of Orcus. I enjoy D&D Orcs being people Eberron-style, but wanted to challenge myself and create a version of always-evil monstrous Orcs I thought were interesting.

I think it's important to evaluate how historical ideas and biases from the real world influence our media. In D&D's case, I believe it's important to think critically about how we represent "the other" in fantasy. If you don't, you will eventually stumble yourself into an uncomfortable confluence of lore and depiction (e.g. the Hadozee incident).

I find the easiest way to avoid othering any group in your homebrew is to exercise your creative chops and write some lore from their perspective. So I combine goblinoids or orcs etc into one group in my homebrew, who call themselves "Orschans" (orc being a term others call them). Now both elves and orcs agree they come from the same stock - the elves say the orcs are fallen and twisted, proof of their depravity being they are ugly and so they must have been cursed. Orcs on the other hand say their transformation is a blessing, taking as proof their increased size and strength. So as answer "who would want to be an orc". An orc would - because they are conditioned to think it is awesome. Same reason we think being human is awesome.

 

[delericho]

Amongst other things, I tend to think one of D&D's lore problems is its depiction of the good species - elves and dwarves and the rest are just too sanitised, too nice. I tend to prefer the view that "while we may sometimes look like you, we are not you" (Babylon 5 is fairly obscure, especially now, but that's where that quote comes from), or "I may be on the side of the angels, but don't for one second think that I am one of them" (Sherlock).

So for elves I prefer the depiction in "The Broken Sword" - the elf lord is ultimately on the side of 'good', but he is proud, arrogant, and sometimes cruel. (I also tend to think they should have established that all elven societies are matriarchal, so that it wasn't quite such a shock when we met the drow.)

(I'm a fan of the depiction of the elves of Taladas and Spelljammer from 2nd Ed days, who are far from nice. But I think it's disappointing that WotC felt the need to introduce a new elves subrace (as was) for their new Spelljammer boxed set, thus once again hiving off the unpleasant bits to an annex, away from the 'real' elves.)

For dwarves... well, I grew up in a former mining community, so I can relate somewhat to their frequent depiction. Except that they should be a lot more hard living, hard drinking, hard fighting, hard swearing... and dying. I'd note that all of the dwarves we meet in "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" are from the privileged class of nobles, and princes, and mine owners. But the cost of all of those treasures those dwarves had amassed is more accurately measured in the blood of their kin - and it's likely that many more dwarves lost their lives digging out Khazad-dum than did when it fell. (I'd be inclined to note somewhere that while a dwarf in good health can live to 250, most of them enter the mines at 50, work for 20 years, have 10 years of retirement in ill health, and then die.)

Make the evil species less monolithically and multiversally evil, yes. But also make the good species also a lot less monolithically and multiversally good too.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Of course, the "elves" in Babylon 5 nearly obliterated humanity...

But I do think appearance is a big factor "we can't punch elves because they look pretty"; "We can't punch halflings because they look like kids"; "we don't mind punching orcs because they are big and ugly".

I used eladrin elves as the main enemy in my first 5e campaign. Funny how players hesitate to fight them, even when they are quite obviously being horrible.