D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Bedrockgames]

Well, kinda. It's more occidental vs oriental . . . but practically, amounts to the same thing. Othering the non-Western world as "exotic".

Another view is it was trying to celebrate and draw inspiration from Asian media

 

[Dire Bare]

The PHB isn't called "Occidental" adventures, though.

That's before we get to the fact that "Oriental" centres Europe - with Asia as "east" of that centre. Which makes no sense on a globe rotating about a north-south axis.

And that's before we get to the fact that, in a fantasy world, the distribution of human peoples and cultures need not mirror that distribution in our world.

Oh, for sure the book title "Oriental Adventures" was problematic when it was first published in 1985 and then again in 2001.

I would find it kinda humorous if WotC did publish an "Occidental Adventures" book at some point.

 

[pemerton]

You are completely misreading what I said

I read it more-or-less the same:

No I didn’t say it was insincere. I stated earlier I think people taking contrary positions to mine are sincere and that they get passionate because these are moral issues people think matter. I mentioned it was fashionable at that time because I think that is what helped give it more traction and because narratives like that one tended to get accepted more readily at the time

You think that they're wrong to think the issue matters. And you think some of those who agree with them - ie some of those who assert that it matters - are doing so because of fashion/style.

 

[Dire Bare]

Another view is it was trying to celebrate and draw inspiration from Asian media

Oh for sure, that was the intent.

Still remains a highly problematic work.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I read it more-or-less the same:

You think that they're wrong to think the issue matters. And you think some of those who agree with them - ie some of those who assert that it matters - are doing so because of fashion/style.

I think we are all subject to fashions and fads. And there are times where some arguments are more readily accepted because of that. I don’t think they are wrong to think these are important moral issues. I think their conclusions about these issues are wrong (as they probably thing mine are). But I don’t doubt their sincerity or moral goodness. I think we just disagree in our conclusions but they are trying to do the right thing and treat others well. So I think they are coming from a place of kindness

 

[Chaltab]

The PHB isn't called "Occidental" adventures, though.

That's before we get to the fact that "Oriental" centres Europe - with Asia as "east" of that centre. Which makes no sense on a globe rotating about a north-south axis.

...wait Toril rotates on a north-south axis?

 

[Dire Bare]

You're probably right about that.


Yet, I feel that censoring words is not always the solution to fight a real problem. Oftentimes I wonder if it doesn't turn out to be more hurtful in the end; a form of radicalization of sorts. The issues behind "orcs", "phylactery" and "oriental" are all very different but all come down to a form of censorship with either little explanation provided, or one that is disconnected from the reality of people living out of certain regions of the US. This is getting uncomfortably political so I'm going to bow out of this thread, but feel free to send me a PM if you wish to engage further.

'findel

So, a creator or publisher who CHOOSES not to use a word that some folks find offensive is a poor solution? It's actually more hurtful, or is a radicalization?

That's some impressive mental gymnastics there.

There's plenty of explanation of why each word is problematic and no longer used in D&D and other media. You just don't like the explanations and don't accept that others find these terms problematic and would prefer not to see them in D&D. You would rather D&D not strive to be more inclusive of those with diverse backgrounds, who feel that D&D is not for them BECAUSE of the use of these types of words. Got it.

 

[Chaltab]

I would find it kinda humorous if WotC did publish an "Occidental Adventures" book at some point.

They might publish it but only as an Occident.

 

[Azzy]

I was a little surprised they published Oriental Adventures for 3.0 in 2001 instead of naming it something else.

There were some complaints about it at the time on the WotC forums.

 

[pemerton]

...wait Toril rotates on a north-south axis?

I have no idea. I'm talking about the earth, which does.