D&D 5E Dual classing; solution to multiclassing?

[Horwath]

Current multiclassing is OK if you avoid 1 or 2 levels of dipping, but on higher levels there is lack of high level features if you split your classes equally.

So why not give some double levels for multiclass characters so they get some more higher level features without having whole levels.

I.E. Dual classing;
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[TD="class: xl67"]5
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[TD="class: xl65"]3
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[TD="class: xl66"]3
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[TD="class: xl67"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]4[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]7[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]8
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[TD="class: xl65"]5
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[TD="class: xl66"]5
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[TD="class: xl67"]9[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]10[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]11
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]7
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[TD="class: xl66"]7
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[TD="class: xl67"]12[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]8[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]13[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]8[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]14
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]9
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]9
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[TD="class: xl67"]15[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]10[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]16[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]10[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]17
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]11
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]11
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[TR]
[TD="class: xl67"]18[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]12[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]19[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]12[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]20
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]13
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]13
[/TD]
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[/TABLE]

Now, character gets 26 class levels in 20 character levels. Dual levels start at lvl5, where all characters get power spike, dual class gets 2 lvl3 features(most of the archetypes or lvl2 spells) and power boost every 3 levels after.

Also instead of 5 default ASI's, dual class character would get 6 of them, but it would be to sort some MAD issues.

HPs would be from class that is leveled that level or average between the two from dual levels.

at 1st level saving throws would be picked as two of the possible 4 from two classes. One must be strong save(dex,con,wis) and one weak save(str,int,cha).


Bonus: triple classing;
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[TD="class: xl66, width: 64"]class C[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]1
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[TD="class: xl65"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="class: xl67"]2
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67"]3
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67"]4
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]2
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]2
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]2
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[TD="class: xl67"]5
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]6
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67"]7
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]3[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]8
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[TD="class: xl65"]4
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]4[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]4
[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]9
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]10
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]11
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]5[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]12
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]6
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]6
[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]13
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[TD="class: xl65"]7[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]14
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[TD="class: xl66"]7[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]15
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[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]7[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]16
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]8
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]8[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]8
[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="class: xl67"]17
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl67"]18
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]9[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]19
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]9[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]20
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]10
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]10
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]10
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Wulffolk]

I miss old style gestalt multi-classing too. However, this needs more work. For instance, the triple-class would get +12 ASI at 8th and 16th level, or 3 Feats.

There needs to be a way to smooth things out over all the levels. Separating ASI from Class level and making it Character level would help some.

GM:

 

[Xaelvaen]

Occasionally, I've allowed a gestalt character in one of my homebrew campaigns. I just weaken the gestalt a bit, make ASI based on character level not class level (so no doubling up), and a few other tweaks. I then increase the party APL by one full party member (So if there's 4 people, and 1 is gestalt, I use 5 People at X level to calculate difficulty for encounters).

It's simple and works pretty well, but depending on the campaign, i don't always allow it.

 

[Mephista]

Sorry, but I don't think this would work out. Not unless you pick some highly synergetic classes, and here's why:

Tier milestones.

What does that mean? Well, we know that 5e is divided up into tiers. 1-4, 5-10, 11-16, 17-20, epic boons. At level 5/6, 11 and 17/8, we get a very notable jump in power which generally sustains you throughout the entire tier. You will generally need to be pure single class until level 5, outside some niche cases with Eldritch Blast scaling up irregardless of class level. You need this power boost to handle the new tier challenges you will face. Waiting til level 8 is a bit tricky for the first bump. Waiting until 15 for the second is even trickier.

Now, while I'm sure there's some exceptions (like the aforementioned Sorlock example), its basically going to be a game that is holding you back more than enabling a true synergy.

The best solution I've been able to come up with is to just make up a new subclass for one of the classes that port over abilities of the second class.

 

[TwoSix]

Personally, I like this a little better for triple-classing. Still gets 2 ASIs at 8 and 16, but not quite as overwhelming.

Bonus: triple classing;
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[TD="class: xl67"]3
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[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]1[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]4
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]2
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[TD="class: xl66"]2
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]
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[TR]
[TD="class: xl67"]5
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[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]2[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]6
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[TD="class: xl65"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"][/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]7
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[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]3[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]3[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]8
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[TD="class: xl65"]4
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[TD="class: xl66"]4[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]9
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[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
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[TD="class: xl66"]4[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]10
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[TD="class: xl67"]11
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[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]5[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]5[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]12
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[TD="class: xl67"]14
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[TD="class: xl65"]7[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]
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[TD="class: xl66"]7[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]16
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[TD="class: xl65"]8
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[TD="class: xl67"]17
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[TD="class: xl66"]8[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]18
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[TD="class: xl65"]9[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]19
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"][/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]9[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]9[/TD]
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[TD="class: xl67"]20
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"]10
[/TD]
[TD="class: xl66"]10
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[TD="class: xl66"]10
[/TD]
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[/TABLE]

 

[TwoSix]

Sorry, but I don't think this would work out. Not unless you pick some highly synergetic classes, and here's why:

Tier milestones.

What does that mean? Well, we know that 5e is divided up into tiers. 1-4, 5-10, 11-16, 17-20, epic boons. At level 5/6, 11 and 17/8, we get a very notable jump in power which generally sustains you throughout the entire tier. You will generally need to be pure single class until level 5, outside some niche cases with Eldritch Blast scaling up irregardless of class level. You need this power boost to handle the new tier challenges you will face. Waiting til level 8 is a bit tricky for the first bump. Waiting until 15 for the second is even trickier.

Now, while I'm sure there's some exceptions (like the aforementioned Sorlock example), its basically going to be a game that is holding you back more than enabling a true synergy.

The best solution I've been able to come up with is to just make up a new subclass for one of the classes that port over abilities of the second class.

I think anyone who wants to use such a system accepts that gaining a greater breadth in power is going to come with a corresponding decrease in depth of power, just as it did in the 1e/2e style multiclassing this is modeled after. In systems such as these, it's better to aim for a lower power level, so that unaccounted for synergies don't cause an unexpected spike in power.

After all, for any homebrewing DM, it's easier to boost an underperforming PC up with targeted boons and magical items than to bring a too-strong PC down.

 

[Mephista]

This isn't a minor decrease in power. This is a system that's going to be a rather major decrease of ability outside of very specific combinations. Its not going to allow hybridization, its going to simply be a tool for system mastery to create specific synergies that potentially unbalance the game when discovered.

Promising that you'll be able to play, oh, a draconborn paladin-sorcerer, lets say. You won't actually be able to play as either in any meaningful way until level 5 at earliest, and even then, you'll be scouring your resources desperately to merely contribute a portion of the amount that a full class paladin can for another 3 levels, until 8. Given that most games end around level 10, that's only two out of all the game that you'll be contributing on the same level as all the non-hybrid people.

Then, lets take the sorlock. Eldritch Blast scales off character level, so you always have a powerful attack irregardless of anything else. Then, you have an near infinite supply of Sorcery points to mess around with, easily refilled during short breaks. You're more effective than a pure class sorcerer or warlock, because you have far more resources than the former should, and a ton of metamagic to make the latter's powers twice as effective. Its the difference between heaven and earth when you find ones that synergize right. This is a tool that rewards system mastery, not something that enables new concepts.

And, really, just how are you going to "boost up" an underperforming PC? With overpowered magic items? Having to rewrite the rules mid game? This isn't a minor tweak. Its pretty significant.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The idea is not too bad. I also don't agree with the poster above regarding useless combinations. It won't be more tricky than raising a multiclass character from level 1 to 20.
You have better levels and worse.

What I thought about in 3rd edition was just dividing xp by 2 or 3 and level up both classes parallel. It used to be that way in 2e. Problem in 3e and 5e was the universal xp table.
I think 3e chars actually ended at level 13 each too with my approach.

So I believe your approach is a bit more interesting, but I guess your double levels are not distributed correctly.

My take:
1 1 0
2 1 1
3 2 2 (that is the level where subclasses usually appear)
4 3 2 (subclass substitutes for ability score increase)
5 4 3 (two subclasses instead of extra attack
6 5 4
7 5 5
8 6 5
9 6 6
10 7 7
11 8 7
12 9 8
13 9 9
14 10 10
15 11 10
16 12 11
17 13 12
18 13 13
19 14 13
20 14 14

 

[CapnZapp]

Current multiclassing is OK if you avoid 1 or 2 levels of dipping, but on higher levels there is lack of high level features if you split your classes equally.

High level features are generally less valued than the low level features of your second class, so I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve here...



Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[Tony Vargas]

And, really, just how are you going to "boost up" an underperforming PC? With overpowered magic items?

It's been doin' the trick for fighters since the beginning.