Dual weapon fighting & Double attack

[Nemesis Destiny]

It had an entire class built around it in a game of eight classes. Calling it 'hard to get' is like saying 'sword and board' or 'healing magic' or 'backstabber' are hard to get.

It's not hard-to-get if 1/8 of the game at release was built around it.

To be clear, I was comparing it with previous editions where everyone could just do it if they wanted to with some minor penalties. It's hard to get outside of your class in 4e. Not everyone can just do it, like in previous editions. That's a pretty significant barrier.

At launch that meant Ranger or not at all. 1/8th as you said. Now there are 40 classes. How many have At-will dual-wielding weapon powers? 3? That's less than 1/8. Plus a race at Paragon? One of another 40 options, about 1/3rd of the way through the game.

It may be a great way to optimize in 4e, but there aren't a ton of different ways to do it. Otherwise, you're looking at a +1 damage with a feat.

So it may be easy to do in terms of "yes it can be done, here's how," but it's hard to do in terms of "here's my concept that doesn't include Fighter Ranger or Barbarian, nor the Half-elven rance, and to which I want to add meaningful dual-wielding."

 

[DracoSuave]

To be clear, I was comparing it with previous editions where everyone could just do it if they wanted to with some minor penalties. It's hard to get outside of your class in 4e. Not everyone can just do it, like in previous editions. That's a pretty significant barrier.

Another way to look at it is that the dual weapon style was supported in 3rd edition by a handful of feats only, and before that by...

oh yeah... be a Ranger.

In fourth edition it's supported by an entire class as well as builds of other classes. You've traded shallow "Here reduce the penalties" support for deep "Here, what -style- of two-handed fighting do you want, exactly?" support.

At launch that meant Ranger or not at all. 1/8th as you said. Now there are 40 classes. How many have At-will dual-wielding weapon powers? 3? That's less than 1/8. Plus a race at Paragon? One of another 40 options, about 1/3rd of the way through the game.

But of those classes that offer it, they offer -depth- of choices from first to final level. A class is not built around one at-will power.

It may be a great way to optimize in 4e, but there aren't a ton of different ways to do it. Otherwise, you're looking at a +1 damage with a feat.

Unless you take more than one power.

Which every first level character pre-essentials does!

So it may be easy to do in terms of "yes it can be done, here's how," but it's hard to do in terms of "here's my concept that doesn't include Fighter Ranger or Barbarian, nor the Half-elven rance, and to which I want to add meaningful dual-wielding."

Good thing there's the Hybrid class, eh?


Let's be honest, dual-fighting isn't just something you add on to other things. It's a fighting style all in its own. It's not like you go 'Well, I'm used to using a broadsword and a shield, so picking up a main gauche, why, that's just like a shield and combat will be exactly the same!'

It's enough of a difference that yes, it does justify unique classes and builds, rather than throwaway feats. It's a ing specialization, just like 'I cast destructive necromantic magic' is a specialization. That deserves better support than a throwaway feat. And it does get better support, by MAKING it your specialization, rather than something everyone does cause... eh.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Let's be honest, dual-fighting isn't just something you add on to other things. It's a fighting style all in its own. It's not like you go 'Well, I'm used to using a broadsword and a shield, so picking up a main gauche, why, that's just like a shield and combat will be exactly the same!'

It's enough of a difference that yes, it does justify unique classes and builds, rather than throwaway feats. It's a ing specialization, just like 'I cast destructive necromantic magic' is a specialization. That deserves better support than a throwaway feat. And it does get better support, by MAKING it your specialization, rather than something everyone does cause... eh.

I'm not disagreeing with the methods by which it is acquired, in fact, I support it being hard to come by.

I was just pointing that out to another poster when this whole thing started. I think we're on the same page here.