Duergar: I'm shocked - a flavour change I really like!

[broghammerj]

That is not a good point. Psi-like abilities and spell-like abilities are functionally the same. All psionic creatures (including illithid) are written up in the MM with spell-like abilities for psionics. The XPH has psionic duergar. The MM version has enlarge person and invisibility, both of which are self only... much as the psionic powers version has expansion and invisibility with the same restriction. The only reason duergar has no psionics in the MM is because the core books have no psionics, except as a heading for some monster's spell-like abilities.

I guess my point was that I am not as familiar with the changes made to create 3.5 Duergar. I was merely stating that my argument against (devil taint as I will call it) may be misplaced if there had been backstory changes in 3.5 that I was not aware of. It appears that there weren't any story changes and so my dislike for all this devilishness continues. I realize that this is obviously JMHO.

I am glad they have a psionic write up as I am a huge fan. Alas, I didn't keep up with the book creep of 3.5 and never bought the XPH.

 

[Najo]

I think this was a good change. It is what I would do to make evil dwarves. It looks like WOTC paid attention to GW's Warhammer Fantasy and Rackham's Confrontation and claimed their own demonic dwarven race. It gives them their own niche and is much more marketable, the themes are scarier too and have a greater potential to lead into epic confrontations for the heroes. Instead of scary, mean evil cousins of the dwarves, we have possession, corrupted magic, evil cults and a subborn race beneath the earth spreading those things as they build their underworld kingdom. Adventurers pressing into their domain would experience typical druegar type encounters, and then they would have elements of devils and demons in the encounters, and then eventually gates into the hells and entire confrontations with demonic legions tied to the druegar themselves. Very epic and intense.

 

[Driddle]

So instead of making them drow of the dwarves, they made them tieflings of the dwarves.

I can't wait for the dragonborn of the gnomes.

 

[TerraDave]

kobolds





(didn't we do this already?)

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think this was a good change. It is what I would do to make evil dwarves. It looks like WOTC paid attention to GW's Warhammer Fantasy and Rackham's Confrontation and claimed their own demonic dwarven race. It gives them their own niche and is much more marketable, the themes are scarier too and have a greater potential to lead into epic confrontations for the heroes. Instead of scary, mean evil cousins of the dwarves, we have possession, corrupted magic, evil cults and a subborn race beneath the earth spreading those things as they build their underworld kingdom. Adventurers pressing into their domain would experience typical druegar type encounters, and then they would have elements of devils and demons in the encounters, and then eventually gates into the hells and entire confrontations with demonic legions tied to the druegar themselves. Very epic and intense.

Indeed.

Now why does any of that have to take my beloved industrial evil duergar away?

I mean, there's 100,000 different ways to do "scary devils, possession, corrupted magic, evil cults, underworld kingdom of evil." One of the ways to NOT do it, IMO, is to take over a race that already had a good thing going for it.

 

[Pbartender]

That is not a good point. Psi-like abilities and spell-like abilities are functionally the same.

Actually it is a good point, since the SRD includes an alternate "Duergar, Psionic" stat block.

The Duergar's Spell-like abilities in the core Monster Manual are opposed by, for example, the Couatl's stat block, which specifies psionic ability thusly:

"Psionics (Sp) At will—detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect thoughts (DC 15), invisibility, plane shift (DC 20). Effective caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based."

The Aboleth's stats make the same distinction.

Whereas, the standard Duergar stats make no mention of psionics at all, not even in the flavor text... It is, admittedly, a bit of a nit to pick, but a valid nit, nonetheless.

 

[ferratus]

They are quiet, reserved, brooding, dark, *grey.* The more hellfire, spikes, tails, and horns they get, the farther removed they are from evil simplicity. There's a good place for devil-touched ostentatious wickedness in the world, but pairing them up with the strong, silent type of Evil is less like peanut butter and chocolate, more like peanut butter and live centipedes.

Well, I have to admit my first thought for monster re-design is "how is this going to impact my minis collection", so if they are red-scaled, tailed, horned and spiked then I'm not going to be pleased myself. That's why I suggested Dis, because the grey of that realm manifested in the Duegar accounts for their colouring. The designers don't seem inclined to use horns sparingly in this edition, but we'll have to see.

I also can't be sure if the Duegar will have evocation-like effects in 4e. I would guess some evocation attacks simply because necromancy and enchanment are being saved for later. However, if it is any consolation one of the recent minis was "Duegar slaver" which I think shows what they think about the Dueger's role in the campaign setting. Whether this means domination spells (a remnant of their psionics) or making giving them other abilities for ambushing and capturing their enemies alive will remain to be seen.

 

[Nellisir]

I'm OK with this change, particularly since my duergar are the result of unearthing some ancient evil, and "normal" dwarves can become duergar through exposure to a powerful corrupting influence.

 

[Mirtek]

Anyways, according to the same page, Loth is the "Demon Queen of Spiders". And demon is used over two dozen times.

Which doesn't really matter. Some demons are gods and some gods are demons. Just like Tiamat is a dragon and a god.

Actually, since demons were defined as CE outsiders in 3.x, almost any CE deity is also a demon.

AND, the Greyhawk origin is there...no Correllan. AND Loth didn't even exist in the Realms until latter. (she had an equivelent, but with a different name).

But apparently, yet another random origin was written. Decades after Loth appeared in print. Sorry.

The FR and GH backstories don't contradict each other. The FR version simply added a prequel to the GH origin which at the end fits seamless to where the GH version takes over.

In 4E the Orc is to be replaced by a fiendish demon baker and his host of demonic minions. Because, you know, that's cooler.

Don't forget to pack the 10 feet by 10 feet *no wait that's wrong that's 3.x I of course mean 2x2 squares room* with all king of cool and exiting terrain! Because, you know, that's cooler than the 3.x standard floor.

 

[The Little Raven]

The designers don't seem inclined to use horns sparingly in this edition, but we'll have to see.

Point me to any races that have horns in 4e that didn't in 3e or earlier.