Duergar: I'm shocked - a flavour change I really like!

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I am starting to see what people are getting at regarding the race vs. subrace thing. You bring up an excellent point. I think their should be a Duergar racial talent tree off of dwarves much as you suggest. Brilliant! However, this should be for PCs only.

I am dramatically opposed to this idea for opponent Duergar. Regardless of their status as a subrace or independent race, they should have a MM write up so that I can use them out of the box and not have to go stating up a bunch of NPCs for my game.

Are you suggesting it would be needed for duergar but not, say, evil hill dwarves or humans?

 

[Rechan]

I really liked their Greyhawk fluff, as a genetic experiment/servitor race by the scarlet brotherhood.

Derro = albino monk assassin from Da Vinci Code?

 

[ferratus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Duegar were intended to be the drow dwarves originally (based on their coloring), given a couple spell like abilities to make them ambushers and able to surprise characters with giant size when they thought they were fighting dwarves.

So I think the flavor we all like about their society and culture came later as people tried to make them more interesting than that. It worked very well, but I don't think it is really contrary to their fiendish heritage. I think the closest fit would be the layer of Dis, because it is gloomy and Dispater in history was also known as "Pluto" or the lord of wealth. Dispater as lord of the city of the dead also works to introduce necromancy to the culture. The Duegar of Krynn (Daegar) are led by "Bonemasters" so it has been done before. Another fit would be the realm of Mammon.

Now about the Duegar psionics, I've always found it an awkward fit. I believe the origin of that was their racial enslavement by the illithid, but that runs the problem of cutting into the Githyanki's backstory and role in a campaign setting. So I'm fine with an infernal rather than psionic explanation for their racial abilities.

Finally, I find the most significant feature about the new Duegar I like is that they will have a variety of abilities. This means a more dynamic approach to humanoids and monstrous humanoids, in which the party can switch up different roles. For example, I imagine the Duegar defender will grow to giant size, while the Duegar striker will turn invisible, the Duegar controller stone shaping or blasting hellfire... and well maybe Psionics will play a role for the leader if they don't get rid of them.

 

[broghammerj]

Are you suggesting it would be needed for duergar but not, say, evil hill dwarves or humans?

Yes, because duergar specifically have known powers associated with them: "All duergar have the following psionic disciplines: expansion, invisibility, molecular attraction, and reduction." That makes them different than run of the mill evil hill dwarves. I don't want to figure out how to multiclass a dwarf so he gets psionic powers. I want to buy a book that does it for me.

In addition, they have the advantage of being in the DnD canon and have historically well defined social background depending on which sourcebook you want to read. Evil humans and hill dwarves don't have these powers nor the history.

More directly to answer your question. I think the MM or DMG should have a broad range of PC type races with class levels. Humans listed for level 5/10/15/20/25 for a multitude of classes. Heck if you want to use humans as examples, I could see Red Wizards of Thay outlined for a FR book.

 

[Pbartender]

I am starting to see what people are getting at regarding the race vs. subrace thing. You bring up an excellent point. I think their should be a Duergar racial talent tree off of dwarves much as you suggest. Brilliant! However, this should be for PCs only.

You wouldn't necessarily need a talent tree, just a few dwarven racial feats (or does that amount to the same thing? ) geared toward Duergar... one that grants Darkvision, another for enlarging, another for invisibility, perhaps another for rudimentary Psi abilities*.

*Although, note that the 3.5 Duergar entry doesn't actually have anything to do with Psionics.

 

[broghammerj]

Not to threadjack, but do those who feel Duergar don't deserve "racial" status in the MM also feel that way about dragons?

Should we have a generic dragon entry with stats based on dragon age? Then a simple paragraph at the end with something like red dragon's breath weapon is fire, blue's electricity, green gas, etc.

Where do you start to draw the line?

 

[broghammerj]

*Although, note that the 3.5 Duergar entry doesn't actually have anything to do with Psionics.

That's a good point. I haven't looked at the 3.5 Duergar in a long time (May be ever?) I was thinking back to my old Fiend Folio days. Regardless, the devil taint is still something I don't need.

 

[Pbartender]

Not to threadjack, but do those who feel Duergar don't deserve "racial" status in the MM also feel that way about dragons?

Not exactly... Although I recognize it as one of the most sacred cows of D&D, I've never entirely liked the idea that dragons breath anything other than fire (with maybe the occassional poison or acid spitter), and even more so the idea that the breath weapons and abilities are matched to color-coded scales.

But that's just me.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So I think the flavor we all like about their society and culture came later as people tried to make them more interesting than that. It worked very well, but I don't think it is really contrary to their fiendish heritage. I think the closest fit would be the layer of Dis, because it is gloomy and Dispater in history was also known as "Pluto" or the lord of wealth. Dispater as lord of the city of the dead also works to introduce necromancy to the culture. The Duegar of Krynn (Daegar) are led by "Bonemasters" so it has been done before. Another fit would be the realm of Mammon.

I don't have any major issues with turning Laduger into a devil or having them associate with Dis or anything like that. As you say, it's not incompatible with them as "industrial evil."

Where I *might* have a problem is if they use the fienish heritage to justify BANG-ZOOM-POW effects. The grey dwarves, the Evil Puritains, the Obsessive Craftsfolk, are kind of at the OPPOSITE end of the spectrum from Bang-Zoom-Pow. They are quiet, reserved, brooding, dark, *grey.* The more hellfire, spikes, tails, and horns they get, the farther removed they are from evil simplicity. There's a good place for devil-touched ostentatious wickedness in the world, but pairing them up with the strong, silent type of Evil is less like peanut butter and chocolate, more like peanut butter and live centipedes.

 

[pawsplay]

That's a good point. I haven't looked at the 3.5 Duergar in a long time (May be ever?) I was thinking back to my old Fiend Folio days. Regardless, the devil taint is still something I don't need.

That is not a good point. Psi-like abilities and spell-like abilities are functionally the same. All psionic creatures (including illithid) are written up in the MM with spell-like abilities for psionics. The XPH has psionic duergar. The MM version has enlarge person and invisibility, both of which are self only... much as the psionic powers version has expansion and invisibility with the same restriction. The only reason duergar has no psionics in the MM is because the core books have no psionics, except as a heading for some monster's spell-like abilities.