Dundjinni and licensing dispute?

[crabclaw]

...as long as you aren't selling them. ...This is GREAT NEWS!!!jh

If one buys the software and spends the time to create a work ...but ...can't ...sell ...it. This is NOT good news. "This" is no news at all, "users can't sell works they create" -- and they don't tell you that until you've already bought it!? "This" is precisely the topic of current discourse on this thread. I don't think I will ever buy this product if this is the position of the developers. Boycott.

 

[Ranger REG]

AFAIC, that's an agreement between RPGA and Fluid, not a blanket permission for everyone. They can make maps for those free adventures, in exchange for promoting Fluid's software.

That's what happen when you ask first.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Knee-jerk greed?

That's quite a bit over the line, don'tcha think? Given how reasonable Fluid is in their responses to these questions, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'd just like to understand what issues (from their perspective) are causing them to be so careful about this.

 

[Drengy]

Getting paid for your work

OK, this is probably a simple and naive view, but here's what I think about the whole "no selling maps created with Fluid artpacks."

First off, if you are looking to publish a commercial module with maps created using Dunjinni and their artpacks, my guess is that if you contacted Fluid you could probably work out a deal. One time fee, acknowledgement, etc.

Before Dunjinni, creating a map of the quality possible with their artpacks would be a ton of time and money. You can't expect to spend $80 and suddenly eliminate this cost - not if you are creating a commercial product. I have too many graphic designer friends whose years of training and skill are under-valued because people think that all you need is some software and they can do the same thing for free.

Second, compare the visual quality of CC maps and Dunjinni maps using Fluid artpacks. It quickly becomes very obvious that there has been a substantial time and creative investment in those artpacks. Probably hundreds of man-hours, by skilled artists. They deserve to be compensated for their work.

Third, imagine you could re-sell any map you create with Dunjinni. What's to keep you from just creating tons of custom maps and selling them, thus reducing the market for the Dunjinni program because users can just have you create the maps and sell to them. Or you could create lots of really small map components for sale so that people could assemble them themselves (like old school geomorphs) - again eliminating the need for people to buy Dunjinni.

Fluid needs to protect themselves from these possiblities, no matter how unlikely. If they just gave blanket permission to resell maps created using their artpacks, it would be difficult to stop the above from happening.

Lastly, if you still don't like their policies - don't buy the product. But don't attack them for protecting their interests.

 

[DaveMage]

First off, if you are looking to publish a commercial module with maps created using Dunjinni and their artpacks, my guess is that if you contacted Fluid you could probably work out a deal. One time fee, acknowledgement, etc.

Possibly - but I would not contact Microsoft were I to compose a published work in Word - even if I used the clipart.

Before Dunjinni, creating a map of the quality possible with their artpacks would be a ton of time and money. You can't expect to spend $80 and suddenly eliminate this cost - not if you are creating a commercial product. I have too many graphic designer friends whose years of training and skill are under-valued because people think that all you need is some software and they can do the same thing for free.

Indeed. I would argue that if I were a small-time publisher, this is precisely what I would expect. Would it be something as nice as a graphic designer could come up with? Probably not. But this product passes itself off as making "professional-looking" maps - so why not use it as such?

Second, compare the visual quality of CC maps and Dunjinni maps using Fluid artpacks. It quickly becomes very obvious that there has been a substantial time and creative investment in those artpacks. Probably hundreds of man-hours, by skilled artists. They deserve to be compensated for their work.

Absolutely! Which is why the software purchase price should be set to an appropriate level - and the art packs have an additional charge for them.

Third, imagine you could re-sell any map you create with Dunjinni. What's to keep you from just creating tons of custom maps and selling them, thus reducing the market for the Dunjinni program because users can just have you create the maps and sell to them. Or you could create lots of really small map components for sale so that people could assemble them themselves (like old school geomorphs) - again eliminating the need for people to buy Dunjinni.

The people at ProFantasy (who make CC) don't seem to have had this problem. And the response would be, of course, why should I buy your maps if I can make them myself on Dunjinni?

Fluid needs to protect themselves from these possiblities, no matter how unlikely. If they just gave blanket permission to resell maps created using their artpacks, it would be difficult to stop the above from happening.

Lastly, if you still don't like their policies - don't buy the product. But don't attack them for protecting their interests.

The problem is, as I stated above, that they really seem like cool people indivdually. I'd like to support their product. It looks gorgeous. I just don't like such limitations on usage of software I purchase.

 

[msd]

Fluid needs to protect themselves from these possiblities, no matter how unlikely. If they just gave blanket permission to resell maps created using their artpacks, it would be difficult to stop the above from happening.

While I can see why a company would take this position (in the abstract), I have to (playing devil's advocate) ask the question of whether or not they are really serving their own best interests? As you say, the product is beautiful and given the price point, I would think every small publisher out there would leap at the software for their cartography needs.

But...

Fluid's current policy simply cuts that potential revenue source right out of the equation. So, really, what interest are they protecting and how well are they protecting that interest?

The knee-jerk reaction is to say that they are protecting their IP but (as a law student studying IP) this just begs the question: what is the value of the IP to a corporation if it is divorced from a revenue stream...what possible business objective is met by spending what must, as you note, have been a colossal number of man hours in R&D only to implement a policy that makes the result of that work unusable to a significant percentage of potential consumers?

Again, my sincere hope is that they re-consider their approach to this. And, while I agree that you probably could reach an agreement with them regarding a commercial sale, do consumers, or Fluid (or most importantly Fluid's legal department) really want to be involved in a series of one-off negotiations when it seems patently clear that plenty of software companies have handled similar dilemnas successfully without comprising their own need to protect the integrity of their IP or the viable use of the consumer?

Again, I think you've made a compelling case, and this is presented simply to demonstrate the other side of the equation. All we can do is hope!

-matt

 

[argon_the_red]

New Dundjinni Publishing Guidelines

Repost from the thread on dundjinni.com:

--------
There is a lot of hubbub about publishing!

What follows is the official scoop. Will be revising our end user license agreement accordingly with the forthcoming patch.


Maps

You make a map and want to offer it up in some way.

Two flavors. User maps and Dundjinni (“DJ”) maps.

User Maps
“User art” is an object or a floor texture or a door or etc you drew yourself. An original.

A user map contains 100% user art

What can you do with them?
• Use them in your campaign
• Use them at a convention or tournament
• Post them to a website
• Submit them to your favorite magazine.
• Sell them for profit
• Distribute them to any person on the planet as
you see fit, for ever and ever, amen.

Use our software just like Photoshop or what-not. Sell your personal creations. Totally great by us. Just make sure it is your own art and not ours or someone else’s.

DJ Maps
If a map has DJ art - even just one DJ art item in it - partially or wholly, it’s considered a DJ map.

What can you do with them?
• Use them in your personal campaign
• Use them at a convention or tournament
• Post them to a website as a freebie.
• Submit them to Dungeon or similar magazines for
publication. If Dungeon magazine pays you for
your submission of your module, that’s ok.
(Dungeon magazine would then, of course, have
to approach us to print the adventure with the
DJ map, and we’re open to talking about that
with them).
• Graphically modify a map or object in a paint
program and offer that as a freebie.

What can’t you do with them?
• Don’t make a profit off of them by selling them
(as a freelancer or self publisher)
• Don’t use them as a promotion as an indirect
way of making a profit. For example, “Hey!
Here’s my great new campaign for 20 bucks and
19 DJ maps for free!” or “If you buy my core
books, you can get free, corresponding DJ
adventures on my website!”
• Don’t use DJ art in other software and then
sell that creation.

In the context of selling, we’re trying to protect what we consider one of our main assets – our art. That’s really the point to put across here. If you have a question or scenario in your head about publishing, then come back to this point: don’t include our art in something you want to sell or otherwise use to make a profit. You couldn't copy a portion of a Monte Cook adventure or a Freeport map, fold it into your creation and then sell that, and we see this as being the same thing.


Adventures

You make an adventure and offer it up.

I’m not sure why someone would want to offer an adventure without the reference map, but here goes. The same holds true for adventures as does maps. Don’t sell the DJ-formatted adventure. Offer it for free, use it at conventions, upload it with credit. Same rules apply.

Now, you could take all that DJ adventure formatting, export to HTML and cut and paste into Word or wherever and come up with your own layout and symbols and etc, and sell that if you wanted. It’s your story and adventure, so as long as you strip out the “Dundjinni-ness” of it, that’s fine by us.


Art packs

You make an art object or an art pack and offer it up. Remember, this is your own art – nothing retouched of our art or etc.

Three flavors. Free, Unendorsed and Official.

Free
You can offer your own free art or art pack for DJ. In fact, please do. You’ll get the most visibility for your stuff if you post any creations on our boards (as well as any other board you wish). It also helps us and keeps the community together. What’s cropping up now is just great!

No credit is necessary on free art submissions.


Unendorsed
Unofficial, unendorsed art objects and art packs. You can create and sell your own art packs in the PNG file format.

You may not use the Dundjinni logo on the packaging or marketing materials for such packs, or otherwise imply any connection or endorsement with DJ. However, you can state the following phrase in this sort of offering:

“Compatible with tile-based mapping programs, such as Dundjinni. www.dundjinni.com”


Official
We are initiating a program with third parties to create officially licensed commercial art packs for Dundjinni. Artwork in these packs would be converted into .djx format with an installer. These packs would carry the Dundjinni logo as an officially licensed product. Participants in this program would enter into a separate license and royalty-based agreement with us for these packs.


Providing appropriate credit

Two flavors. Logo and web link.

You must provide Dundjinni credit in the following instances:

• For maps used at a tournament or convention
• For maps submitted to a magazine or etc for
publication
• Any time you distribute more than 10 copies of
a map.
• Any time a digital map is posted to a website.
• Art objects do not require credit, unless it is
of the official flavor.
• Adventures offered for free already have the
Dundjinni credit on it when you print it, so
you are covered on this one.

Logo
The logo is a png file of the Dundjinni logo, web url and Keith.

This logo will be offered as the .png DOTW this Friday, and permanently added to the downloads page. We will shape it in the form of a usable compass rose.

Add this logo to your “users” folder in Dundjinni, and place it in the lower right corner of your map. When you stamp it down, make sure it is set to the top most layer.

You should put this logo on future maps that are uploaded to the Dundjinni site too, since those maps could get redistributed to other sites.

Web link
The second form of appropriate credit has to do with the web. If you post a map, art object or adventure to the web, you must also include the following link:

“Map made with Dundjinni software – www.dundjinni.com”

Make that in 7 point legible font at least, please!

You do not have to include this link on submissions to the Dundjinni site.

If you would be so kind as to send us an email with that web page so we can track it, that’d be great!

If there is a free DJ map, (or adventure), out there on the web and we like it, we reserve the right to copy that map to the DJ site as a freebie. Sort of a share-the-wealth program for all to benefit from.


Summary

As a small company that just spent a huge amount of resources to build Dundjinni, we want to protect our investment. We want to stay in business, and continue to provide you with patches and upgrades and art packs.

We also want to maintain our focus on the needs of all the GM’s out there, for whom we built this product in the first place. And we think we can do that better if we split out and license commercial use separately from personal use.

We hope this helps clarify the issue and puts it to bed, and that you can see where we are coming from on it.

Peace,

The Dundjinni Team
--------

 

[msd]

In the context of selling, we’re trying to protect what we consider one of our main assets – our art. That’s really the point to put across here. If you have a question or scenario in your head about publishing, then come back to this point: don’t include our art in something you want to sell or otherwise use to make a profit. You couldn't copy a portion of a Monte Cook adventure or a Freeport map, fold it into your creation and then sell that, and we see this as being the same thing.

In my mind, this is where the critical miss is...

I see the art packs as part of the functionality of the software just as in the same way that I consider the various fonts that come with Word to be part of the functionality of the software. While I appreciate that reasonable minds can disagree on this point and probably will, I still simply fail to see how this limitation offers them any "protection" of their IP.

In my mind, their entire argument rests on a single, flawed assumption which is that map producers and map consumers are the same thing - effectively interchangeable parts. In my experience, that's simply not true. WoTC's map of the week is popular because people don't want to be bothered with making maps. They simply want to be able to have the map without caring whether it was made in CC2, PSP, Dundjinni, etc. For Fluid to see this type of consumer as a potential lost sale is to confuse map consumer with map producer. In reality, consumers were likely not to be customers in the first place so the limitation doesn't help avoid lost sales at all. It merely inhibits sales to people who would be map producers and Fluid customers but who won't purchase as a result of the limitation on re-distribution.

It's as if I walk into a store that sells musical instruments and, after buying a guitar, the salesman tells me that I can't record and sell music commercially because every CD sale represents a potential lost sale of a guitar...

Again, ymmv and probably does...

 

[crabclaw]

[font=&quot]

The knee-jerk reaction is to say that they are protecting their IP but (as a law student studying IP) this just begs the question: what is the value of the IP to a corporation if it is divorced from a revenue stream...what possible business objective is met by spending what must, as you note, have been a colossal number of man hours in R&D only to implement a policy that makes the result of that work unusable to a significant percentage of potential consumers?

-matt

[/font]I suspect FLUID has an artist or two in mind that they want to "subcontract" to do all commercial fantasy cartography. Perhaps, the artist(s) who created the art packages? Shady deal if you ask me.

They are trying to corner the market. BOYCOTT! DON'T BUY DUNDJINNI!

 

[Fluid]

I was about to say to check the Dundjinni forums for an update on our approach to publishing, but Argon beat me to it.

www.dundjinni.com