Dungeon 146

[Razz]

More to the point, throughout something like 30 years, the balor's been the toughest non-unique demon. Sure, it's easy to build a tougher demon, but is it necessary? I don't think it is. There's value in tradition, and throwing tradition out the window just to outdo what's been pretty established in D&D lore strikes me as disrespectful. Which is why I'd rather see the klurichir as a tough but not tougher than the toughest demon. And as Shemeska pointed out, the role of that demon is the already-established molydeus.

I'm not biased toward the balor. I'm biased toward D&D tradition.

If not a tougher than demon than the balor, what's wrong with a rival demon? I can understand the viewpoint at dropping it from CR 25 down so that the balor can remain the top demon, but would it hurt the balor to have a rival and to give DMs an alternative to the balor for their campaigns?

So what exactly is going to be nerfed with the updated Klurichir since there's no compromising? It's ability scores? Spell-like abilities? Spellcasting? Special attacks?

What attracted me to the klurichir was just that: it was bigger, badder and different from the balor. If tradition is what's going to kill it, then I hope it's abilities are only minimally nerfed and the flavor of the klurichir isn't destroyed. I can see some spell-like abilities getting knocked and probably it's spellcasting, but the poison, vorpal pincers, multiattacks, and other things I hope stay and its ability scores get beefed up.

Might I suggest it as a CR 18 creature then? Maybe 19 so that it can be an alternative/equal/rival to the molydeus? I don't see how that would cause any problems. I'd just hate to see such an awesome creature get pegged too low of a CR 17 and I am worried that for you guys to keep it at CR 17 you'll nerf the things I loved about it.

Personally, I don't mind balors. But the umpteenth balor in the multiple campaigns I DM with my players starts to bore all of us and the klurichir I took a liking to at first sight because it was an alternative and a powerful one at that.

I might be the only one feeling this way with the klurichir, but I am sure many others loved the demon and use it or wanted to use it...but the mechanics of it in Fiend Folio were lopsided so it got the short end of the stick with most players.

 

[Razz]

In response to that I should add one thing to what I said earlier. I don't have a problem with the Abyss fomenting the creation of a class of demons more powerful than balors, but I do have a problem with the creation of groups of tanar'ri more powerful than balors. Other "species" of demons, be they obyriths, loumara, elder species of varrangoin, subtypes of bebeliths, etc might very well have castes that rival or exceed the power of balor tanar'ri, but they belong to different ecologies, have different origins, behalf by different rules of promotion/advancement, etc.

If the klurichir is a tanar'ri, it should operate within the paradoxical "rules" that the tanar'ri castes evolve within. The balor as the highest rank of non-unique tanar'ri is firmly enmeshed there either by the process of tanar'ri metaphysical evolution within the Abyss, or perhaps even something written into their basic core substance by their Obyrith creators or their native plane. Something breaking that needs to have a majorly awsome backstory to justify it (which the klurichir's milligram or two of flavor text lacks) or it needs to be something that isn't a tanar'ri.

And that's just the arguments based on in-game flavor, much less as James said, the desire to adhere to the balor's decades of tradition as the most powerful unique tanar'ri.

I see what you mean. I forgot that the Abyss does have an established hierarchy (wherefore lies the paradox...a plane of chaos possessing a hierarchy). So the klurichir, with all cards laid out, is pretty much best to stay below the balor's radar. But I do highly recommend the klurichir to be more CR 18 or 19 than CR 17.

 

[Nightfall]

Razz,

I am fine with depowering the Klurikur. There are other things Balors fear that don't have to be tanar'ri.

 

[Razz]

Razz,

I am fine with depowering the Klurikur. There are other things Balors fear that don't have to be tanar'ri.

I don't mind it too much either. I'd just wouldn't want to see a completely watered down version of it. Reducing the number of spell-like abilities and taking away its spellcasting ability I can see happening, but I'd like the flavor of the klurichir to stay, which is most of its special attacks. I'd personally would like to see a CR 18 or 19 version of its as opposed to making it a CR 17.

 

[Pants]

I might be the only one feeling this way with the klurichir, but I am sure many others loved the demon and use it or wanted to use it...but the mechanics of it in Fiend Folio were lopsided so it got the short end of the stick with most players.

Yep, I like the idea of the klurichir, but the mechanics as written are horrible. I have no problem having a class of tanar'ri being tougher than the balor and I don't see much overlap between the molydeus and the klurichir, flavor or mechanics wise, but that might be because the molydeus has much more flavor devoted to it and it has had two editions to grow into its role whereas the Klurichir has had only 2.25 books. So obviously, the molydeus wins on that one.

I don't think that retconning the klurichir into a 'weaker than the Balor' type of being is necessarily the best way. The better way, imo, is to find a way to make the klurichir work in its role as an uber-powerful demon/tanar'ri. It's easy to ignore what you don't like, it's harder and, in my opinion, more rewarding to identify its strengths and weaknesses and make it work.

 

[Swordsage]

My view on the klurichir is that CRs and stuff shouldn't come into it. Balors can still be the pre-eminent non-unique tanar'ri whilst in power terms the klurichir out-muscle them. The reason why this is so and klurichir haven't usurped the balor pre-eminence can be as simple as saying something like klurichir only exist in very small numbers, thrown up totally randomly in the demonic evolutionary process, and that they don't last long. As in they are sucked back into the primordial chaos stuff that envelops the Abyss at random and generally not that long after they have been created. What demon lord is going to assign any task or holding or just about anything to a klurichir underling when by tomorrow, that demon may be simply ... gone? However, they would be the perfect short term bodyguards or assassins.

The Swordsage

 

[Razz]

Very valid points. Both sides have very valid points.

It all comes down to James Jacobs (no pressure there, James LOL) on how to handle a revised Klurichir for the upcoming adventure it's supposed to be used in.

I trust there'll be some sort of compromise with it?

 

[diaglo]

yay, my copy arrived.
late but not overly late.

 

[Rauol_Duke]

yay, my copy arrived.
late but not overly late.

Lucky you...

More than likely, I'll have to wait another week or so until Paizo deems me worthy of sending a replacement issue (like with Dragon #353 last month).

 

[Razz]

I'm waiting on a preview of Dragon #355. It shipped on the 3rd and I know by now a few people here on the forums might have it already, if not by tomorrow.