Dwarves don't sell novels

[Turjan]

I don't want to bring religion into this debate unnecessarily due to the boards' rules. However, there has been a decline in religiosity over the centuries as science has increasingly provided explanations for phenomena that were previously thought as divine in origin.

Sure. My point was that there is no indication that both, science and religion, are exclusive. And whereas religion nowadays manages to survive without any flashy show of magic power, magic in a fantasy setting overcomes even this hurdle easily. It's visibly there. At least it's true for D&D. Ars Magica is somewhat different in this regard, but that's not topic here. In D&D, science has no reason to replace magic, because magic in D&D works pretty much like science: in a reliable and provably effective way.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I have to say one thing to those who tell others "this game isn't for you, move on".

I have to say to them: This game isn't for you, move on.

If there's one thing typical to D&D, it's everything. D&D isn't about robots. It's about the possibility of robots if only you want to. D&D isn't about sci-fi, psionics, whatever. It's about the possibility of those things, if you want them in your game.

That's wha D&D doesn't come with a game world hard-wired into the system, like so many other role playing games. It's meant to be played in the world that you want.

Now, I give you that I don't want soulbots (warforged) in my game. I don't want magical trains (Thunderrail). So I don't use the Eberron world. But that doesn't mean that D&D isn't for me just because I don't like Eberron. And it doesn't mean that Eberron isn't D&D, either. It doesn't mean that you must use robots in D&D for it to be D&D. It means you can.



The other thing, since we seem to make a big large pyre to burn all the elf fanboys on: Yes, there are people who like elves more than everything else in D&D. They think they're living gods or something and are insufferable. But there are also people who like dwarves more like everything else, and those dwarf fanboys are just as insufferable. And there are elf fans - and dwarf fans - who are perfectly fine chaps.

Now, both elves and dwarves - the races themselves, as presented in D&D - have both good and bad sides. Both have been depicted favourably and disfavourably in novels and rulebooks and whatever. Both were, or are, too powerful at one point of the game or the other.

The only really bad thing is the guys flaunting their hatred of one race - and I only really saw the witch hunt for elves around here, though I might have overlooked the dwarf-persecutions - citing only the bad aspects of the race they hate and only the good aspects of other races. The others realize, or are prepared to realize, that all the races can be good or bad, and that it's the people, not the race itself, that gives them the bad image.

 

[Zander]

Now, I give you that I don't want soulbots (warforged) in my game. I don't want magical trains (Thunderrail). So I don't use the Eberron world. But that doesn't mean that D&D isn't for me just because I don't like Eberron. And it doesn't mean that Eberron isn't D&D, either. It doesn't mean that you must use robots in D&D for it to be D&D. It means you can.

In Dragon Magazine some time ago, I essentially said the same thing: I'm glad that Eberron exists as a repository for such things as psionics, technology and dungeonpunk. It's not my cup of tea at all but I don't want to stop others from having those things.

The problem is that WotC have a disregard for fantasy that extends outside of Eberron and has tainted the whole game. Witness gnomes, halflings, monks and knights. If WotC had paid more attention to the fantasy/literary roots of these elements we would see far fewer complaints about them.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Two broad questions for those of you who believe that D&D should be turned into a sci-fi game replete with robots and spaceships:

First, your prelude to the question is incorrect. We, or at least I, don't believe "D&D should be turned into a sci-fi game replete with robots and spaceships"- D&D is and always has been a FRPG with certain elements that some would consider sci-fi...although early sci-fantasy writers would disagree with that characterization.

1. In the presence of science, how do you explain magic? How do dragons fly? How do pegasi preen their wings?

The same way they always did- by magic.

Magic allows you to break rules; avoid causality; violate the laws of thermodynamics.

Let me ask YOU: in the presence of magic, how do you explain the science that gets used every day in a typical medieval world? The refinement of metals, the tanning of leather, the growing of crops, the breeding of livestock and plants, the math involved in building bridges, domes, arches, aqueducts, etc.- all are based in science.

How do people WALK if there is no science involving biochemistry (fuel for the body) or friction?

Do your campaign worlds use magic for EVERYTHING?

2. Do heroes in your campaign ride around on bicycles?

If someone invented them, maybe. After all, it worked in Mark Twain's excellent fantasy, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. Of course, a knight on a bike would be giving up the mass and leverage of a warhorse, which adds significantly to the force delivered at the point of a lance.

As I've already mentioned in this thread and in Dragon Magazine, if some people want that in their fantasy, I'm perfectly happy. I'm certainly not some authority to manage your fun and I don't want to be. My dispute is with WotC. Because they lack creativity, they can't see the myriad ways in which fantasy can still grow apart from following a sci-fi course. And I don't want D&D to become a purely sci-fi game. It squeezes genuine fantasy fans like me out.

You're clearly NOT happy. You're attacking the infusion of sci-fi elements as uncreative. You're dismissive of the tastes of others.

And I find that last sentence to be a bit of an insult.

In the face of the many classic writers of fantasy who include and even FEATURE sci-fi elements, you cannot simply exclude people who enjoy sci-fantasy from the category of "genuine fantasy fans."

We are every bit as genuine as you claim to be.

Instead, it is your narrow minded view of what fantasy that is squeezing you out.

The problem is that WotC have a disregard for fantasy that extends outside of Eberron and has tainted the whole game. Witness gnomes, halflings, monks and knights. If WotC had paid more attention to the fantasy/literary roots of these elements we would see far fewer complaints about them.

You need to learn the history of the genre. Modern fantasy stories date back to the 1800's (as opposed to things like faerie tales and what we now call "mythology"), and infusing sci-fi elements has always been a significant part of the genre. In fact, sci-fi and fantasy were one genre up until the genre split rather visibly post-JRRT and the rise of hard sci-fi. And even AFTER his books, that thread of creativity has continued.

WotC isn't disregarding fantasy, they're embracing one aspect of it.

Is Eberron consuming a lot of their attention? Sure- just like Forgotten Realms could be blamed for "killing" Greyhawk, Eberron is the current hot property, and other settings are suffering somewhat. However, WotC would be foolish to undersupport it since it IS a moneymaker.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

In Dragon Magazine some time ago, I essentially said the same thing

You can keep mentioning your amazing ability to have a letter published in a magazine that actively solicits letters, but it doesn't make your argument any better.

Eberron doesn't have technology in the sense that you think it does. At all.

If anything, it's more high-magic than the Forgotten Realms, just with (mostly) lower level NPCs.

You're railing against the Iron Kingdoms, which WotC has no ties to, other than the D20 license.

The problem is that WotC have a disregard for fantasy that extends outside of Eberron and has tainted the whole game. Witness gnomes, halflings, monks and knights. If WotC had paid more attention to the fantasy/literary roots of these elements we would see far fewer complaints about them.

Or, alternately, gamers like complaining about stuff, and will complain at the drop of a hat, whenever their personal interpretation doesn't match the official one.

 

[Victim]

I have to say one thing to those who tell others "this game isn't for you, move on".

I have to say to them: This game isn't for you, move on.

If there's one thing typical to D&D, it's everything. D&D isn't about robots. It's about the possibility of robots if only you want to. D&D isn't about sci-fi, psionics, whatever. It's about the possibility of those things, if you want them in your game.

What about people who try to house rule DnD into GURPS or Harnmaster and want the next edition to cater to their tastes? I think it's usually pretty clear that DnD isn't the game for them; they just want the player base.

 

[Zander]

Let me ask YOU: in the presence of magic, how do you explain the science that gets used every day in a typical medieval world? The refinement of metals, the tanning of leather, the growing of crops, the breeding of livestock and plants, the math involved in building bridges, domes, arches, aqueducts, etc.- all are based in science.

The technology level of most D&D campaigns - at least originally - is circa late 15th - early 16th century Europe. While the developments in metallurgy etc from that period were quite advanced (more than many people nowadays realise), there is plenty of evidence that the armourers etc of the period didn't know why what they were doing worked, they just knew that it did. I have, though not to hand, one of the earliest European treatise on the making of gunpowder. By modern standards, it is full of errors in its explanation of what works and why. The scientific method was in its infancy, if that, at the time in European history that most closely resembles the classic worlds of D&D.

How do people WALK if there is no science involving biochemistry (fuel for the body) or friction?

Do your campaign worlds use magic for EVERYTHING?

Science is the method of investigation and the results deriving from that investigation. The term isn't cognate with the physical world.

If someone invented {bicycles}, maybe. After all, it worked in Mark Twain's excellent fantasy, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.

I think that Twain had his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. Also, IIRC, it was as a result of the protagonist having travelled back in time from the US Civil War period when bicycles had long existed and introducing them to Dark Age Britain.

You're clearly NOT happy. You're attacking the infusion of sci-fi elements as uncreative. You're dismissive of the tastes of others.

And I find that last sentence to be a bit of an insult.

In the face of the many classic writers of fantasy who include and even FEATURE sci-fi elements, you cannot simply exclude people who enjoy sci-fantasy from the category of "genuine fantasy fans."

We are every bit as genuine as you claim to be.

"Genuine" should be taken to quality "fantasy", not "fan". I don't deny your fervour.

You need to learn the history of the genre.

No, WotC does.

WotC isn't disregarding fantasy...

If that were true, they would not have bungled gnomes, knights etc.

 

[Zander]

You can keep mentioning your amazing ability to have a letter published in a magazine that actively solicits letters, but it doesn't make your argument any better.

I didn't mention it to support my argument directly, merely to illustrate that my position is one I've long held. The fact that the letter was published some time ago is the relevant point, not that it was published at all.

By sarcastically describing my "ability" as "amazing", you are making an ad hominem attack which is uncalled for.

 

[MarkB]

*blink*

Halflings? Not sexy? Not even slinky, leather-clad, got-that-petite-hot-thing-going Lidda?

Someone's still thinking of hairfeet. Disappointing, really.

Done correctly, all the races are sexy. I can even think of sexy gnomes and half-orcs I've seen. Someone in the novel department needs to see more art.

Sorry about this, but you went and inspired me, and then I just couldn't stop myself...

So let's have a big hand for that great druidic group of strolling players The Beech Boys as they sing their number one hit...

Well half orc girls are great
I really dig those jutting fangs
And the gnomish girls with their magic tricks
Make me glad that I'm a man

The half-elf girls are charming and they always treat you right
And the halfling girls are so short and sweet
Really fill me with delight

I wish they all could be hairy dwarven
I wish they all could be hairy dwarven
I wish they all could be hairy dwarven girls​

 

[Kesh]

I wanted to go with a classic sort of campaign setting -- dwarves, dragons, kobolds, goblins, a human-run feudal state -- but I wanted to change it up so that it wasn't just The Hobbit leftovers.

So I decided to go with a different mountain culture, one I'm reasonably familiar with and which I thought fit in well with D&D dwarves.

If you've never had a barefoot dwarf spitting tobacco while sharpening his axe on a porch and wearing a standed pair of overalls, I submit your dwarves have been trapped in too narrow of a stereotype, since from where I'm sitting, this fits perfectly and is a natural outgrowth of the standard tropes.

You, sir, are my new hero. Living in rural Kentucky, I can see very well how that'd fit a fantasy dwarf.

*goes off to scribble a rewrite of his homebrew setting*