Dwarves don't sell novels

[Infernal Teddy]

I'm starting to see Zander as a Troll...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I didn't mention it to support my argument directly, merely to illustrate that my position is one I've long held.

No one gives a crap about the length of time you've held a poorly thought-out opinion. It's the opinion itself that matters.

Opinions are not like wine: Age does not somehow improve them.

By sarcastically describing my "ability" as "amazing", you are making an ad hominem attack which is uncalled for.

No, I'm not.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Let me ask YOU: in the presence of magic, how do you explain the science that gets used every day in a typical medieval world?<snip> the math involved in building bridges, domes, arches, aqueducts, etc.- all are based in science.

The technology level of most D&D campaigns - at least originally - is circa late 15th - early 16th century Europe. While the developments in metallurgy etc from that period were quite advanced <snip> The scientific method was in its infancy, if that, at the time in European history that most closely resembles the classic worlds of D&D.

The scientific method came into its own when Gallileo developed the heliocentric theory of the solar system- the same time period.

Math, the language of engineering and architecture, was pretty sophisticated at that point- the foundations of algebra could be traced back to the Babylonians. Trigonometry was used by Egyptians and Mesopotamians.

There is really a lot of REAL science going on by the setting of a typical D&D world.

Science is the method of investigation and the results deriving from that investigation. The term isn't cognate with the physical world.

GOOD!

Magic isn't cognate with the physical world either- its just a method to break the rules...and you don't need to know and understand the rules to be able to break them.

After all, it worked in Mark Twain's excellent fantasy, A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.

I think that Twain had his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. Also, IIRC, it was as a result of the protagonist having travelled back in time from the US Civil War period when bicycles had long existed and introducing them to Dark Age Britain.

Yes- its a comedy, but it was also clearly fantasy- the method of time travel was being unconscious under a tree (and since he brought back artifacts of his travel, it wasn't merely a dream).

Unless you want to argue that comedic fantasy isn't fantasy, the point remains.

"Genuine" should be taken to quality "fantasy", not "fan".

Well, its still wrong.

As I and others have pointed out, "Genuine" fantasy has included anachronistic technology for at least 100 years..

You need to learn the history of the genre.

No, WotC does.

WotC isn't the one denying the techno influenced fantasy as rare, not important, and not "genuine."

WotC isn't disregarding fantasy...

If that were true, they would not have bungled gnomes, knights etc.

Sure they could have. They can bungle things as trivial as punctuation and grammar, they can bungle important things as well. They've bungled lots of things. They're HUMAN. However, you've yet to tell us how they have done so in your opinion, so I'll stop there.

 

[Iku Rex]

Sexy?

DnD races nude from elfwood. Not porn, but still NSFW I think.
Females: elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/j/a/jarrett/racialsizefemaleelfwood1.jpg.html
Males: elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/j/a/jarrett/racialsizeelfwoodmale1.jpg.html

(No, it's not all that relevant to the thread, but I thought of them after reading some of the comments here.)

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

DnD races nude from elfwood.

Back to hairy feet? Yah, that's sexy.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

man, that male elf is such an awsome looking elf.

 

[Zander]

Math, the language of engineering and architecture, was pretty sophisticated at that point- the foundations of algebra could be traced back to the Babylonians. Trigonometry was used by Egyptians and Mesopotamians.

Maths isn't a science. It's a tool and a language, not a system of investigation or its conclusions.

There is really a lot of REAL science going on by the setting of a typical D&D world.

No, there isn't. As I've already said, although a lot was achieved by this point, it wasn't through science. Many historians of science place the birth of science with Newton who came later (and even some historians of the subject regard Newton as too early).

Magic isn't cognate with the physical world either- its just a method to break the rules...and you don't need to know and understand the rules to be able to break them.

If you subject one part of the physical world to reasoned, scientific scrutiny, there's no rationale for not doing the same elsewhere. When you start to do that to magic, mythical creatures etc, the fantasy breaks down.

Yes- its a comedy, but it was also clearly fantasy- the method of time travel was being unconscious under a tree (and since he brought back artifacts of his travel, it wasn't merely a dream).

Unless you want to argue that comedic fantasy isn't fantasy, the point remains.

Twain introduced bicycles in gentle mockery of fantasy/historical fiction. It supports my point that introducing advanced technology into fantasy upsets the imagery of fantasy. That's fine when the intention is comedic as in Twain's book. Otherwise, it's absurd. How many gamers would take seriously a paladin in full plate with a lance couched under his arm peddling his bike as furiously as he can at a dragon?

As I and others have pointed out, "Genuine" fantasy has included anachronistic technology for at least 100 years..

Tolkien cautioned against the introduction of science and technology in fantasy. Hickman and Weis even used the incompatibility as the theme of their Darksword novels and RPG.

Sure they could have. They can bungle things as trivial as punctuation and grammar, they can bungle important things as well. They've bungled lots of things. They're HUMAN. However, you've yet to tell us how they have done so in your opinion, so I'll stop there.

If I detailed every mistake they made because they had attempted to rewrite fantasy without due regard for the genre, it would take too long. However, many of the points raised about gnomes, knights etc in other threads by other posters stem from this. If you go over to one of the recent threads about gnomes, you can see my own contribution. If you like, I can do a search and post a link.

 

[Zander]

I'm starting to see Zander as a Troll...

I'm not advancing the position that I am because I want to antagonise anyone or attract attention. I do believe sincerely in my stance as, I think, Dannyalcatraz does in his. That's not to say that either of us are trolls.

 

[Infernal Teddy]

Maths isn't a science. It's a tool and a language, not a system of investigation or its conclusions.

This is the moment where - despite the fact that I've tried to show you that none of us takes you and your point of view less serious than our own - I will no longer take you serious. You seem to know nothing about mathematics.

 

[Zander]

This is the moment where - despite the fact that I've tried to show you that none of us takes you and your point of view less serious than our own - I will no longer take you serious. You seem to know nothing about mathematics.

From dictionary.com:

Science
- The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
- Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
- Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

Mathematics
- The study of the measurement, properties, and relationships of quantities and sets, using numbers and symbols.

Science uses maths, but maths itself isn't a science. Maths per se doesn't explain phenomena. It allows you to measure and describe them.