Dwarves don't sell novels

[Dannyalcatraz]

I kinda think that WotC haven't heard of the Lord of the Rings. What sort of genuine fan of fantasy would want robots (warforged) and psychic powers (psionics) in their novels and games? Tragically, D&D has been entrusted to sci-fi wannabes.

and

And of course, just like all the psionics arguments, the exception justifies dismissing the rule completely, yes?

It's a matter of scope. There's cthulhu mythos elements in the odd Conan story as well, or so I gather, but it's not a core theme of the setting. When aliens invading becomes an everyday occurrence on Hyboria, with Conan fighting greys as often as picts, then you might have an argument. Until then, it's the "Greyhawk is the wild west because Murlynd has six-shooters" argument - one that crumbles under more than trivial scrutiny.

and

LOL. Long after those books are forgotten, there'll still be legions of fantasy fans reading LotR and the Conan stories.

Right.

There is more under the vast roof of the Greathall of Fantasy than elves, dwarves and barbarians.

You'll find psionics and aliens (if not extraterrestrial, then extradimensional-as opposed to extraplanar) in a variety of classic fantasy literature by important and revered authors like Vance, Lee, Lieber, Lovecraft, Moorcock, and Zelazny.

Maybe its not YOUR taste, but those tropes have long and distinctive histories all their own- back to the dawn of modern fantasy literature in the early 20h century- and are no more likely to fade into obscurity than the legacies of JRRT or Howard.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

You'll find psionics and aliens (if not extraterrestrial, then extradimensional-as opposed to extraplanar) in a variety of classic fantasy literature by important and revered authors like Vance, Lee, Lieber, Lovecraft, Moorcock, and Zelazny.

Don't forget Edgar Rice Burroughs, a pillar of the genre if there ever was one. He was around long before JRRT.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I have never read a book tied to an rpg. I also dont go to cons, so in reality i have never met a elf fanboy, thus when on the frums, i get alittle anoyed at all the elf hate. Its ether over this or that. get over it eh? The elf hate is probably older then the fanboys you hate so much. Sounds like elf hate is the mainstreem now. the goths have become the cool kids, so what are you going to do about?


mmmm sexy half orcs.


http://www.cafzone.net/galerie/albums/pub/lineage2/normal_big_orc.jpg

 

[Dragonbait]

The government states that this post does not exist. Move along, move along.

(aka: I screwed up. Ignore this)

 

[rounser]

Maybe its not YOUR taste, but those tropes have long and distinctive histories all their own- back to the dawn of modern fantasy literature in the early 20h century- and are no more likely to fade into obscurity than the legacies of JRRT or Howard.

And if you really need psionics, robots, aliens and magitech everywhere, as a fundamental and pervasive part of your games, then maybe D&D's not to YOUR taste, and YOU need to move on. It's a reversal of the idea that those who don't want more than an occasional touch of anachronistic stuff need to move on - no, maybe YOU need to move on...to another game. You just don't want to admit that D&D's no longer for you, and keep beating it's dead horse corpse until it's an unidentifiable mess.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And if you really need psionics, robots, aliens and magitech everywhere, as a fundamental and pervasive part of your games, then maybe D&D's not to YOUR taste, and YOU need to move on. It's a reversal of the idea that those who don't want more than an occasional touch of anachronistic stuff need to move on - no, maybe YOU need to move on...to another game. You just don't want to admit that D&D's no longer for you, and keep beating it's dead horse corpse until it's an unidentifiable mess.

Considering that even 1Ed AD&D had its robots & aliens, I don't think the horse is dead. Heck, its not even just one horse we're talking about.

"Techno" stuff and anachronisms are sprinkled all over the D&D landscape.

I mean, besides the 1Ed module that actually had a crashed alien starship (S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks), you have golems & clockwork critters ≈ robots. Peruse some of the 1Ed & 2Ed monster entries, and you'll even find SENTIENT constructs, precursors to the Warforged of Ebberon.

I forget whose PC it was who got published as a TSR NPC, but it was a mage who had to "L-Shaped" pieces of metal as foci for his magery...in other words, a pair of sixguns.

Vance's Dying Earth stories influenced not only D&D's magic system, but many of the items as well- some of which were clearly of technological origin.

And those other authors weren't just tossed off idly- most of them, too were among the many influences on the game from day one.

My point?

Fantasy is a broader genre than you'd care to admit, and D&D has always found a way to accomodate that breadth, not just in the various homebrews, but also in the game's official content.

I'm not saying that you have to add psionics to your game. I've been playing this game for 28 years, mostly in plain vanilla settings that have no psionics, no robots, no magitech. It does that quite well. But it also handles the funky stuff too.

Yet Zander thinks that because a piece of fantasy literature or RPG campaign has a quasi-techno element means it can't be enjoyed by a "genuine fan of fantasy," and you assert that such elements are "rare."

And both propositions are demonstrably false, or at least, not as true as you'd like to believe.

 

[Remathilis]

Yeah, halflings and dwarves sell so poorly. I think I'll write a story about a halfling, an old wizard, and 13 MALE dwarves going on a quest. I'll never sell...

 

[Arrgh! Mark!]

If I remember correctly, Sins of the Fathers by Destan was also another great dwarf-starring storyhour along with good old Wulf Ratbane.

I can see why elves on covers sell D+D fantasy.

Same reason why covers sell fantasy. Dwarves aren't pretty, Dwarves aren't nice, and hence, dwarves don't always win.

Elves are pretty, godlike, and always win. Most people who read fantasy don't brain warping adventures Dying Earth style or even nihilistic character dramas Iron Dragon's Daughter style.

People read fantasy to have a bit of fun. Now, thats all good. Personally I wouldn't mind hearing about the torment a dwarven character goes through as he's forced by one tradition to violate another or something. But most people want light entertainment, not really embracing stuff.


Lets have a look at old Drizzt. While he's lost a fair bit, he hasn't lost enough that he can't come back to his safe place. Whatever he's lost he regains through some process of redemtion. His friends will never completely isolate him. If we have a look at Destan's dwarf, through no fault of his own he's taken from everything he's ever wanted without mercy. We don't know if he'll get it back.

We know Drizzt will win eventually. We know eventually he'll either come back from his fall from grace or die heroically.

A dwarf? unlikely. Novelists will have to really think about these characters because they don't fit the hero story so easily. Hence a good dwarf needs a better grade of writer to write with any facility.

So it's true. Elves do sell covers. But people who prefer a more serious style of fantasy don't buy for pretty elves.

Unless it's unclad, pretty elf-chicks with swords...

 

[Kishin]

LOL. Long after those books are forgotten, there'll still be legions of fantasy fans reading LotR and the Conan stories.

Except that those books were hugely influential in their own right. Valdemar basically spawned an entire subgenre of Fantasy, which now even has a roleplaying system built around its major tropes (Blue Rose). The Deryni novels are equally widespread.

I'm about as big a fan of REH (or any Weird Tales writer) as you'll get, but he and Tolkien are far from the be-all-end of fantasy. Contrary to what you think, the genre has evolved considerably, and you do have features beyond the baseline (ie. psionics) popping up as early as Moorcock, Zelazny and Vance, as others have indicated in their thread. In modern fantasy, you have other household names showing widespread genre influence: Terry Brooks (and I will for now withhold my bias against his work, as everyone and their third cousin Steve seems to have read the Shannara books), Robert Jordan (Again, my own personal bias against his worldbloating aside), Kate Elliott, George R.R. Martin, all of whom are working to re-invent the wheel in their own way.

If there's one thing that I cannot stand, its the stifling of creativity though narrow genre definitions. If you want to limit creative possibilities and retread the same tired old ground again and again, be my guest, but don't consider yourself the majority, or force that opinion on others.

This is especially true with D&D and the whole wrongbadfun debate, which need not be rehased here.

P.S I'll inject a little personal bias here in the end and say that if you think D&D was intended to be restricted to low-magic Tolkienesque prancing through the Mines of Moria, I've got a copy of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks to show you, as well as the treasure allotments for just about every high level module since the dawn of the game.

 

[rounser]

"Techno" stuff and anachronisms are sprinkled all over the D&D landscape.

I mean, besides the 1Ed module that actually had a crashed alien starship (S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks), you have golems & clockwork critters ≈ robots.

Not denying that. It fits my argument to a tee. These are curiosities, and departures from the norm of the Greyhawk (and Blackmoor) settings. The very thing that makes them somewhat interesting is their novelty. In fact, I'd suggest that you've scuttled your own argument by even citing these as an example.

Peruse some of the 1Ed & 2Ed monster entries, and you'll even find SENTIENT constructs, precursors to the Warforged of Ebberon.

Again, irrelevant. A golem NPC has limited "screen time", whereas a tin man PC has constant "screen time", such that it alters the tone of the game in a way that a single NPC (or even a race of them) is unlikely to.

And both propositions are demonstrably false, or at least, not as true as you'd like to believe.

It appears that you're making assumptions about my argument because either you don't understand it or don't want to entertain it. I'm not saying these things don't belong to fantasy, just that they need to be handled with care before going "prime time" with them, because they bring flavour implications which you are seemingly blind to. Maybe you wouldn't think twice before adding laser rifles to the PHB equipment list, but surely you can see reason that some folks would? Not even Blackmoor has that. Why? Because they're there as a cross-genre novelty, of course, and don't fit Blackmoor except as alien artifacts. Eberron's tin men would look just the part toting them, though, which says it all, really.