Eberron- And why I cannot jump onboard? A different take

[Orius]

The goal in doing this is to make the player characters significant -- to say that the ability to reach high levels is more than just a matter of killing 1,001 orcs, but also reflects the inner potential of the character, and that the PCs possess a far greater potential than most people. The idea is that as things stand, a 16th level cleric *is* tippety tip top. This is accomplished both by the (relatively) low levels of the NPCs and the fact that most NPCs use NPC classes. Thus even a low-level cleric is going to stand out in the world -- and if he can make it to 17th level, he's the coolest guy on the continent.

Now this is a philosophy I have no problems with. It's good to set up a world were the PCs should be heroes, instead of always being in the shadows of the luminaries. Elminster is cool sometimes, but all to often, he seems to be a meddler who serves in a not-so-subtle way to remind players there's always someone stronger then them. Slapping down cocky players has its place, but there should also be room for them to shape the future of the campaign world. You don't really get that from the Realms.

And 16th level is reasonable to me, since most of the high level NPCs in my campaign are in the level 15-20 range.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Well, I am better with the idea that it represents an abberation in the normal state of affairs, but I don't know that I'm happy to be on board.

Though a nine year old 16th level cleric is nice. And I have always loved the world just emerging from a nasty war bit. Particularly the dynastic aspect of the war. Conflict lost a lot when it stopped being so familial.

Thing is I could never stomach the idea that you only to get to be a hero and important to a setting if your the only hero in the setting.

To my mind the cool thing about being cool is hanging out with other cool kids.

Being the only cool kid in the playground is powerfully uncool.

This is not to say that I forgive FR for its particular form of madness. Elminster is not a cool kid.

 

[kenjib]

If you are truely opposed to magic and tech then don't ever use a golem. That is what they are in many ways- worked metal that is animated through magic to perform a set programmed task.

Do a google search on "jewish golem." The word has a different meaning in the bible, but by medieval times it's meaning is quite recognizable and has nothing to do with technology. Done properly, the golem is actually a great example of how to make something magical that doesn't smell of technology.

Speaking of smells, I think every campaign setting has certain intangible qualities to it that can be best described as a smell, or taste that is left in your mouth when you think of it. Remember cracking open and reading the old FR grey box set for the first time? Gary Gygax's Greyhawk? What do you taste when you think of Middle Earth or Hyboria? Lovecraft's occult Earth? Planescape? Ravenloft? Dune? Star wars? It's usually something you can't explain very well, but recognize instantly.

I still don't get a cohesive scent from Eberron (but then the same can be said of most of the 3e/d20 settings). It seems like a cacophony of smells and flavors borrowed from other worlds and ideas that have yet to coalesce into anything distinctive and inspiring. However, I don't think there is nearly enough info on the world yet for such cohesion anyway, so maybe it will emerge when the book comes out.

I do think that limiting onesself to working within the self-referential D&D style is very counter-productive to achieving this though, and Eberron is very much crippled in this regard. For me, the D&D tropes have become utterly worn out, no matter how well anyone tries to spin them in new directions. You can already see it in the previews: yuan-ti, drow, beholder, continual flame, fireball, elemental, two dozen organizations named "*noun* of the *adjective* *noun*" or some similar permutation, new prestige class, new subrace, new template, new region with a name like "the sea of blood" or the "forest of DOOM!" kingdom of this, evil empire of that. Fill in the blanks, create an "original" hook, and voila another new campaign setting. Underneath the new coat of paint it's still the exact same old stuff.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

See, I fail to see what's generic about the setting -- it looks unlike anything produced by TSR, Wizards of the Coast, or anyone else that's made any product remotely like D&D before. This is probably the only product from WotC that I'm for sure going to buy this year.

I'm also for sure going to buy the two Iron Kingdoms setting books -- assuming they actually do come out this year...

At least they've admited to miscalcs in pages/problems/delays. I know from seeing Warmachine that it will be good, I can wait, I'm practicing for Sainthood.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

Well I know what my characters first goal will be.

Gnomish plumbers guild here we come!

 

[Hellcow]

I still don't get a cohesive scent from Eberron (but then the same can be said of most of the 3e/d20 settings). It seems like a cacophony of smells and flavors borrowed from other worlds and ideas that have yet to coalesce into anything distinctive and inspiring. However, I don't think there is nearly enough info on the world yet for such cohesion anyway, so maybe it will emerge when the book comes out.

I certainly hope and believe that is the case. So far people have seen a few random patches from a tapestry, without seeing any of the threads that hold these ideas together; for that matter, there are still a few very critical patches that are missing from the picture. Further, some of the ideas really don't lend themselves to the two-sentence descriptions that they've been given. Eberron isn't just a random pile of ideas, and I think that will become more clear in months to come.

You can already see it in the previews: yuan-ti, drow, beholder, continual flame...

Actually, I'm curious.. continual flame aside, where do you see any of these three creatures in the previews? Or are you using these three as a general example of "iconic monsters from the MM"?

 

[MerricB]

Even that 16th-level cleric is a 9-year old girl

The tragedy implied in that statement is terrifying to me.

Cheers!

 

[kenjib]

Actually, I'm curious.. continual flame aside, where do you see any of these three creatures in the previews? Or are you using these three as a general example of "iconic monsters from the MM"?

Apologies for my laziness in choosing examples. You are correct that I did not choose my examples well. I suppose I was going more on the concept that part of the design concept behind this world was taking everything in the D&D palette and finding a place for it. I remember the dinosaurs being mentioned either by you or by WotC as an example of finding a home for something because it's in the books. Are you doing something original with ecology in your world or are you using the typical D&D palette? My impression was the latter so please correct me if I am wrong.

The same goes with magic, correct? Take the standard D&D tropes, put a twist on them (low level magic is prevalent, pervasive, and taken for granted as part of the economic structure), and see where it takes you. Thus, it is defined explicitly by the D&D tropes themselves.

In any case, I hope your campaign setting is successful and draws more people into the hobby. WotC puts out very high quality production and your idea was heavily screened, so I'm sure the setting will be well received. My comments reflect solely my own preferences.

 

[Stormrunner]

I suppose if it's going to be the "new generic world" they have no choice but to try to include everything that's in the core rulebooks. Makes things awful crowded, though - just in the MM alone there are over 130 intelligent races (Int 7+) - not counting the "semi-intelligent" critters with Int 3-6, not counting the various halfbreeds, and not counting subtypes (e.g., "sphinx" was counted as one entry, despite there being multiple kinds of sphinx).
This was one of the things that annoyed me about Nyambe. I was hoping to see a much more central role for some of the African-themed races, such as gnolls and wemics. Instead they're barely mentioned, and we get dozens of pages about Krosan orcs. This is Mythic Africa, for Anansi's sake! Gimme hyena-men and leopard societies, griots and gris-gris, magesmiths and maskmakers, naildolls and orishas and iron lutes. Lose the friggen orcs already! And the Nyambe elves, Nyambe halflings, et al.

I doubt I'll ever run Eberron as-is, I prefer my own settings. But I probably will buy at least the core book, and mine it for crunchy bits. I wasn't too impressed by the artificer (I think the FR gnome artificer worked better), but the Exorcists of the Silver Flame could be dropped into one of my campaigns without even a name change.

 

[TiQuinn]

The tragedy implied in that statement is terrifying to me.

Cheers!

What's terrifying or tragic about that statement?