Eberron-as corny as I think?

[genshou]

The latter, definitely. That's the point. As you said, the "usually" alignment is based on culture and religion. In Eberron, monstrous cultures are every bit as diverse as those of humans. Looking to orcs, you have the balancing Gatekeeper-Dragon Below traditions of the Shadow Marches, which span the full spectrum of alignments; the noble Ghaashkala of the Demon Wastes; the more aggressive Jhorash'tar of the Mror Holds; and whatever else you may add to the setting. There's no inherent "Orcs are usually evil"; it's all about culture, and there are many different cultures. Ditto for medusas, minotaurs, and even red dragons!

The dragon is another "always" point. Again, the only creatures I hold to "always" are creatures whose alignment is dictated by a metaphysical nature (outsiders) or overriding magical force (lycanthropes). You could argue that a dragon is in some ways an iconic entity like an outsider, but the dragons of Eberron are not. They are intelligent creatures whose alignments are shaped by culture and tradition, just like humans. Within a culture, dragons often share an alignment - but this can lead to the noble blue Storm Guardians of Adar. So when you see a red dragon you can't just say "Red means evil"... you need to know his background.

Very cool. I like the idea of dragons not having a set alignment. I think I may just start using it in my homebrew.

 

[Stone Dog]

Now, in Eberron would you say that for these races the "over 50%" still applies to the races as a whole, or have you gone even further and made them truly culturally broad as an entire race?

Keeping with the orcs as the default conversation...

As far as I know there are three main orc cultures. The Jhorash'tar in the mountains of the Mror holds who are in the traditional territory conflict with the dwarves. The Ghaash'kala who live on the boarders of the Demon Wastes and worship the Silver Flame in their own tongue calling it the Kalok Shash who are devoted to keeping the evil of the Wastes on the otherside of the mountains. The orc tribes and human clans of the Shadow Marches who are mostly split between the Gatekeeper druid faith and the more insidious cults of the Dragon Below.

In the first you can only really guess that they don't like the dwarves all that much at all. In the second they may be savage and primal, but their overarching faith is still lawful good. In the third case you really... really can't guess by looking. There is about as much chance that they are just folk trying to get by as they are cultists of madness and evil.

As far as orcs go, you have a pretty broad base of cultures!

Edit- KEITH! MR BAKER! Damn, we go from nothing for months to dancing around each others posts just like old times. Makes me all nostalgic and stuff.

 

[Felon]

How did Eberron become a major D&D setting? It doesn't seem like fantasy at all. I mean, it has robots warforged and airplanes airships. It seems like somebody was trying to make "science fictasy"

Why do folks feel the urge to get cutesy with their polls? "Yes" and "no" are quite adequate. You didn't need to tack the extra commentary--in fact, doing so pretty handily excises all the votes from people who don't love Eberron or think it's "cheap and corny".

Personally, I would've voted "no" myself, and I find it pretty lame that folks try to assert that robots and bullet trains in a fantasy campaign aren't even slightly out of place. Spare us the vaguely applicable references to Lord Dunsay or Jack Vance stories. If Jack Vance wrote a fantasy book with that stuff, rest assured it was one of his absurdist pieces.

I don't mind a setting trying to be different, but simply introducing "spellpunk" analogues of modern or futuristic technologies, and being rather blatant about it ("lightning rails" my coddlings) isn't terribly innovative.

Of course, that's what I would have voted, had the poll been properly generated. :\

 

[Stone Dog]

Very cool. I like the idea of dragons not having a set alignment. I think I may just start using it in my homebrew.

I personally keep to the idea that dragons still have certain impulses based on species. Good reds are still pretty damn egotistical and overconfident, whites tend to be more savage and primal in thought even if they want to help more than harm. Beware the evil Brass dragon who may torture you for idle chit chat or the merciless bronze who enforces his solitude with deadly intent.

Dragons have certain iconic behaviors based on color, but their methods can be as inscrutable as need be and their morality is almost always difficult to divine.

 

[JohnSnow]

Sorry, I was off responding to another thread.

Keith summed my comment up very nicely. In many settings, it's not just outsiders who's alignment is predictable. In addition to dragons, the "evil humanoids," giants, drow, and so forth come to mind. I like demons, devils and angels (the "true outsiders") having fixed alignments. I even use that in my d20 Modern games, which don't even HAVE alignment.

The one that REALLY irks me is clerics. I addressed this in passing, but while the standard D&D notion that every deity is so active that his clerics all have to roughly conform to his alignment is not exactly suspension of disbelief jarring, it does shoot down some very good plot ideas. Every cleric of Pelor (or whoever) is on your side and can be trusted. Nice, I guess, but it really messes with things in a way that eliminates religious figures as sources of interesting stories - they really become only suitable for motivating very simplistic black and white adventures. Which tends to make for quite cliche gaming.

Very cool. I like the idea of dragons not having a set alignment. I think I may just start using it in my homebrew.

I started doing that ages ago. I also give tend to give dragons fire breath by default, but that's a whole separate issue.

Actually, I never thought it was. My point is that *standard D&D* is far higher than I would like. By the DMG demographics table, the standard metropolis will include an 17th or 18th level cleric (along with a few more in the 15th level range), along with a 16th level wizard and sorcerer. Even in a small city, you've got a good chance at 5th-level arcane and 6th-level divine spells. Again, with Eberron the point is more magewrights and adepts, more 1st-4th level magic... but considerably less 5th-level and above.

See, like Keith, *standard D&D* is far higher than I would like. By the demographics in D&D, a "standard metropolis" has, IIRC, 25,000 people. That means Waterdeep (say) would have something like 20 16th level wizards/sorcerers, and an equal number of 17th level clerics. Umm...excuse me??? That just makes me cringe. If I'm wrong about the 25,000 number, it goes down, but it still makes them a bit too common for me.

And I personally appreciate that Eberron doesn't take itself TOO seriously. At the end of the day, D&D is, after all, a game. And, in my opinion, fun can be had by tweaking, or running with every assumption in it.

 

[JohnSnow]

This may VERY well be cheesy. But it's how I roll (dice). Essentially, when I'm running a game, it's a move. The PCs are the main characters. They may run into big, cool villains. But they don't running into a stormtrooper who's three levels higher than his buddies because he was on that mission where they killed all the jawas and the others weren't. He's a background character, and background characters often get screwed.

Speaking of background characters who get screwed, remind me to tell you the epic of Bonk the Stormtrooper someday...

He's the one who (almost) single-handedly brought about the downfall of the Galactic Empire. You just THOUGHT he was a background character.

 

[Hellcow]

I may still not want to pick up a copy of the campaign setting and play a game in it, but now that I've gotten a chance to have some intelligent conversation with you I feel a lot better about some of the issues I had with it.

Glad to hear it!

 

[Nyeshet]

Eberron has some nice ideas, but I've never particularly liked the setting. I like my fantasy a bit more grounded in the past. Eberron is more of an "Indiana Jones and the Isle of Doctor Moreau" mixed with vancian magic, dinosaurs, and robots. I like the fact that it adds more intrigue to the game, gives more support to psionics, and utilizes action points, and the new races based on the Doppelganger and the Werecreatures have potential. The oddity of the (moving) planes is also interesting. On the other hand I dislike adding in carnivorous dinosaur mounts (How do you feed them without going bankrupt?), and more particularly the use of high(er) level techno-magic (railroads, robots, etc).

I decided not to vote in the poll as my view is rather between the two. I don't view Eberron as 'corny', but neither is it my cup of tea. I will admit to mining it for a few ideas, however.

 

[genshou]

See, like Keith, *standard D&D* is far higher than I would like. By the demographics in D&D, a "standard metropolis" has, IIRC, 25,000 people. That means Waterdeep (say) would have something like 20 16th level wizards/sorcerers, and an equal number of 17th level clerics. Umm...excuse me??? That just makes me cringe. If I'm wrong about the 25,000 number, it goes down, but it still makes them a bit too common for me.

The stats for a metropolis say "25,001+". It never gives an upper limit before it should be considered two metropolises for the purposes of highest-level NPCs and the like. At 132,661, Waterdeep is pretty damn big. Even if you split that up into 5-6 metropolises, however, you would not end up with 20 16th-level Sorcerers/Wizards. On average you would get 5-6. In standard D&D, that makes perfect sense for a sprawling metropolis of that size. Certainly that's not everyone's cup of tea. But how much of an effect can those 5-6 Sorcerers and 5-6 Wizards have on the 132,661 they live among?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The stats for a metropolis say "25,001+". It never gives an upper limit before it should be considered two metropolises for the purposes of highest-level NPCs and the like. At 132,661, Waterdeep is pretty damn big. Even if you split that up into 5-6 metropolises, however, you would not end up with 20 16th-level Sorcerers/Wizards. On average you would get 5-6. In standard D&D, that makes perfect sense for a sprawling metropolis of that size. Certainly that's not everyone's cup of tea. But how much of an effect can those 5-6 Sorcerers and 5-6 Wizards have on the 132,661 they live among?

A huge amount, actually, when some powerful threat comes to the city. Even the evil ones aren't going to let someone wipe out the city they live in. Meanwhile the typical non-heroic citizen hides or flees in terror.