Eberron-as corny as I think?

[Barak]

Well, they key to having Warforged make sense is those forges that allow them to be created for so cheap (1500gp). If one was to remove those magical forges, the cost of making one warforged, if possible, would have to be much higher. But that's ok, it's part and parcel of the setting, and add an interesting element (gaining control of said forges, assuming they still exist).

Note that I disagree (with the maker of the setting, no less!) that it's "fair" to consider a basic warforged as a 2nd level character, and were I to run a campaign in Eberron, in which the forge plaid a part, they'd come "out" as 0th level character. Otherwise, 1500Gp is just way too cheap for them.

 

[Hellcow]

Note that I disagree (with the maker of the setting, no less!) that it's "fair" to consider a basic warforged as a 2nd level character, and were I to run a campaign in Eberron, in which the forge plaid a part, they'd come "out" as 0th level character. Otherwise, 1500Gp is just way too cheap for them.

It's fair for you to do so, Barak. But the key is that if they came out as 0-level characters, they are far less useful; even commoner recruits are at least first level. One of the things that makes the warforged valuable is the ability to purchase a unit of elite troops - soldiers that would take years to train on your own, assuming you could find people with the potential - in short order to meet an immediate need. And that's the point of the warforged. The warforged never replaced humans on the battlefield. They were too expensive and too few in number, and there was always a use for that 1st-level commoner peasant recruit, if only to hold the battlefield. Warforged are expensive, elite units, capable of performing tasks that the peasant simply can't.

Furthermore, you're not really disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the designers of Lords of Madness. By LoM, the normal cost of purchasing a 2nd-level slave is 400 gp; by upping it to 1,500 or 1,600 gp, I'm setting it at their suggested maximum, for a slave with tremendously exceptional traits. Obviously, you have every right to disagree with THEIR numbers. But the point is that I'm not simply setting an arbitrary price, I'm drawing on a WotC sourcebook... and actually setting the warforged at the upper end of that spectrum.

 

[Barak]

It's fair for you to do so, Barak. But the key is that if they came out as 0-level characters, they are far less useful; even commoner recruits are at least first level. One of the things that makes the warforged valuable is the ability to purchase a unit of elite troops - soldiers that would take years to train on your own, assuming you could find people with the potential - in short order to meet an immediate need. And that's the point of the warforged. The warforged never replaced humans on the battlefield. They were too expensive and too few in number, and there was always a use for that 1st-level commoner peasant recruit, if only to hold the battlefield. Warforged are expensive, elite units, capable of performing tasks that the peasant simply can't.

Furthermore, you're not really disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the designers of Lords of Madness. By LoM, the normal cost of purchasing a 2nd-level slave is 400 gp; by upping it to 1,500 or 1,600 gp, I'm setting it at their suggested maximum, for a slave with tremendously exceptional traits. Obviously, you have every right to disagree with THEIR numbers. But the point is that I'm not simply setting an arbitrary price, I'm drawing on a WotC sourcebook... and actually setting the warforged at the upper end of that spectrum.

Perhaps, but I see a big difference between buying a slave of a certain skill, and a warforged straight out of the forge, of the same skill. To me, the warforge is better. Much better. With no life-experience and preconceived notion about slavery, assuming I treat it somewhat decently, he most likely won't even consider "rebelling", and will probably obey orders, complete it's mission, and come back, even without supervision. Why wouldn't it? The aforementioned slave, most likely, require immediate, constant supervision to perform, or at the very least a high likelyhood of immediate, -effective- persecution if he just.. Walks away while deep in enemy territory.

Also.. It's sorta hard to get a big number of 2nd level fighter slaves. I mean, you have to find them -somewhere-. Warforged are made, and I assume that while they don't come out in infinite number at the drop of a hat, they were a bit easier to make than it was to find a bunch of 2nd level fighters. In which case, supply and demand come into play.

 

[Kishin]

Well, they key to having Warforged make sense is those forges that allow them to be created for so cheap (1500gp). If one was to remove those magical forges, the cost of making one warforged, if possible, would have to be much higher. But that's ok, it's part and parcel of the setting, and add an interesting element (gaining control of said forges, assuming they still exist).

Note that I disagree (with the maker of the setting, no less!) that it's "fair" to consider a basic warforged as a 2nd level character, and were I to run a campaign in Eberron, in which the forge plaid a part, they'd come "out" as 0th level character. Otherwise, 1500Gp is just way too cheap for them.

By contrast, I'm pretty inclined to agree with 1,500 GP pricetag, because there are other limiting factors besides the monetary ones, primarily the complexity and rarity of Creation Forges and the time required to prepare them for their new role. I would also assume that there exists something of a 'gestation period' so to speak with regards to the time it for a warforged to emerge from a Creation Forge, mainly because I can't imagine an arcane process that synthesizes rare materials like mithral and adamantine from apparent nothingness to operate at the same speed as my microwave. (Of course, this is largely conjecture, so if the Creation Forges do spawn warforged at a rabbit-like rate, all I can say is wow, where did they all go?)

Lastly, certain secondary sources (and boy do I feel like a tool for plugging/referencing Keith's novels in a thread Keith himself is posting in) do show us that there isn't a 100% success rate amongst Certain Forges, and that sometimes you get warforged that are, uh, not quite so right, to put it mildly.

 

[Barak]

By contrast, I'm pretty inclined to agree with 1,500 GP pricetag, because there are other limiting factors besides the monetary ones, primarily the complexity and rarity of Creation Forges and the time required to teach Warforged the necessary skills of their trade. I would also assume that there exists something of a 'gestation period' so to speak with regards to the time it for a warforged to emerge from a Creation Forge, mainly because I can't imagine an arcane process that synthesizes rare materials like mithral and adamantine from apparent nothingness to operate at the same speed as my microwave. (Of course, this is largely conjecture, so if the Creation Forges do spawn warforged at a rabbit-like rate, all I can say is wow, where did they all go?)

Lastly, certain secondary sources (and boy do I feel like a tool for plugging/referencing Keith's novels in a thread Keith himself is posting in) do show us that there isn't a 100% success rate amongst Certain Forges, and that sometimes you get warforged that are, uh, not quite so right, to put it mildly.

But.. Wouldn't everything you mention make the price go up, rather than down?

 

[Hellcow]

There are other limiting factors besides the monetary ones, primarily the complexity and rarity of Creation Forges and the time required to teach Warforged the necessary skills of their trade. I would also assume that there exists something of a 'gestation period' so to speak with regards to the time it for a warforged to emerge from a Creation Forge, mainly because I can't imagine an arcane process that synthesizes rare materials like mithral and adamantine from apparent nothingness to operate at the same speed as my microwave.

Correct on both counts. House Cannith was able to produce something like 2,000 warforged/year (averaging over the period... fewer initially, more at the end). And while we've talked about warforged coming out with skill, that is a slightly exaggeration. If one refers to the Dragonshards, they DID require a period of training: it's simply the case that they advanced to the 2nd-level mark in a remarkable short period of time, attaining a level of skill one couldn't expect from a standard boot camp trainee. So yes, if you had to literally push the warforged out the door the moment he emerged from the forged, you WOULD be dealing with a lack of skill; it's all about the swift acquisition of skill, getting a soldier in a few months that you'd be lucky to get with years of training otherwise.

And while a warforged is certainly more reliable than the average slave, a) that's why the cost is bumped up to the maximum value listed for a slave of that level, and b) as Kishin has pointed out, warforged DON'T always come out right or do what you expect them to. That training period involved heavy indoctrination and efforts to supress warforged emotion, but it wasn't always successful, as warforged like Indigo, Harmattan, and the Lord of Blades show.

Anyhow, I'll let it rest there, as I have other matters to attend to. The 1,500 gp figure is a suggestion, and in no way official; if you don't like it, Barak, you're certainly free to change it to whatever seems reasonable to you.

 

[Kishin]

Why wouldn't it? The aforementioned slave, most likely, require immediate, constant supervision to perform, or at the very least a high likelyhood of immediate, -effective- persecution if he just.. Walks away while deep in enemy territory.

I'm not so sure about this. There's a psychological element to slavery you're neglecting here, and its perfectly possible that a slave has been conditioned to their status such that such an idea is ludicrous, especially if said slave was born a slave, rather than grabbed off a streetcorner somewhere and thrown in irons.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I don't know alot about Eberron, but based on its description, I would prefer the Mystara setting for a game of high magic/technology. That campaign, or at least the Known World portion, also has a nice mix of "real world" cultures integrated with the high fantasy that makes it easier to digest. And as for pulp, the planet of Mystara is hollow, filled with dinosaurs and lost civilazations! Doesn't get more pulp than that!

 

[Barak]

I must say, throughout this thread, my opinion of warforged -has- changed. Both because of campaign-specifc things (the Forges that enables them to be made in the first place), and through simply discussing some issues (as one example, the worth of warforged compaired to Iron Golems). That said, I'd probably modify a few things were I to run an Eberron campaign, but not nearly as much as I thought I would before this thread.

Oh, and of course, Eberron is t3h suck, and would never have won the contest had I bothered to submit my -awesome-!!1!eleven!! setting.

 

[Barak]

I'm not so sure about this. There's a psychological element to slavery you're neglecting here, and its perfectly possible that a slave has been conditioned to their status such that such an idea is ludicrous, especially if said slave was born a slave, rather than grabbed off a streetcorner somewhere and thrown in irons.

Probably. But the odds of that compared to a warforged are low, especially if we are talking about a 2nd level PC class slave.