Eberron-as corny as I think?

[Stone Dog]

Except that the price of your one Iron Golem (150,000 gp)

That is creation cost. Cannith wouldn't be making a profit off of that, remember? So to purchase one would be something more like 300,000 GP.

Also, warforged aren't slowed for three rounds by a shocking grasp or worse, an electrical version of Ray of Frost! Not even mentioning the 2.5 tons that the enemy has to work with. You could ride horses over a trap that a golem would fall through!

 

[Barak]

It amazes me that players of a game that has dwarves, elves, and halflings fighting dragons, trolls, demons, etc. would call another game contrived or silly. What if the Eberron gods had just created them like the other sentient races? Would that have been better?

In a way, yes, and yet, not really.

Again, for the third time, Eberron (and warforged) aren't -more- contrived than other settings and some stuff from such.

Anyway. The difference is.. It's hard to call elves contrived because they are just another race, like humans, in most ways. So they aren't really any more contrived than humans are, all things considered. However, Warforged are humanity's creation, like computers or PEZ dispensers in our world. So there's some discussion possible.

Also, warforged aren't slowed for three rounds by a shocking grasp or worse, an electrical version of Ray of Frost! Not even mentioning the 2.5 tons that the enemy has to work with. You could ride horses over a trap that a golem would fall through!

But an Iron Golem -can- hurt a Warforged with a punch in the face.

 

[Stone Dog]

Again, for the third time, Eberron (and warforged) aren't -more- contrived than other settings and some stuff from such.

Thanks for being patient in repeating that. More clarification is almost always a good thing and keeping your head about it is appreciated!

Anyway. The difference is.. It's hard to call elves contrived because they are just another race, like humans, in most ways. So they aren't really any more contrived than humans are, all things considered.

I have heard very often how people are tired of the same old contrived treatment of elves based on Tolkienesque descriptions and folklore too though. New ways of looking at elves (Eberron's Aerenal and Valenar as well as Athasian elves leap to mind) are better than the standard fare to me while the elves of the Realms or Dragonlance just make me think "this again?"

However, Warforged are humanity's creation, like computers or PEZ dispensers in our world.

No, they really aren't. I'm serious about that, computers were a progression through stages of simple clockwork to vacuum tube monsters to mainframes to desktops all through human ingenuity and progress. Warforged were found in an arcane design in a faraway land by inhuman minds and a handful of humans mucked about with them for a while with not much clue what they were really doing.
If computers were made from technology found in an ancient alien crash site, sold to nations all over the world and became independantly intelligent creatures capable of full emotions all in the space of two to three generations then the parallel would be alot closer.

But an Iron Golem -can- hurt a Warforged with a punch in the face.

Where a warforged can use tactics, teamwork, tools and traps. A golem as a 0 intelligence score and can't talk. Can you get it to scout? React to body language for defense or even give an alert while standing watch? Teach it new tricks? Can it effectively take new territory and hold it?

I am not saying that a golem or a warforged titan isn't a good investment here, but really I would rather have CR 13 worth of warforged soldiers, scouts and artificers rather than CR 13 worth of one tank. That is all the golem is. A tank. It needs a commander almost constantly and is only good for hitting things really hard.

 

[Klaus]

In a way, yes, and yet, not really.

Again, for the third time, Eberron (and warforged) aren't -more- contrived than other settings and some stuff from such.

Anyway. The difference is.. It's hard to call elves contrived because they are just another race, like humans, in most ways. So they aren't really any more contrived than humans are, all things considered. However, Warforged are humanity's creation, like computers or PEZ dispensers in our world. So there's some discussion possible.



But an Iron Golem -can- hurt a Warforged with a punch in the face.

That assumes the golem gets within melee reach. Being intelligent (and having skill points to put into Listen and Spot), the warforged battalion (c'mon, it's 100 of them) will definitely know the golem is coming. Make that 90 warforged, with 9 being Artificer 2 instead of Ftr 2 (they serve as "medics"), with wands of electric ray of frost. With the remaining cash you buy adamantine arrows for the warforged. The Iron Golem will be scrap metal before reaching any of the warforged. Heck, 10 of our warforged offer to hold the golem back (it's slowed by the wands), while the archers rain adamantine on it. So we're looking at a possible loss of 15,000 gp vs. the other guy's 150,000.

Stone Dog -> 150,000 is the market price of an iron golem (cost to create is about 80,000 gp).

 

[Stone Dog]

Whoops, sorry bout that bit! Thanks Klaus. I've been at this too long today.

 

[Hussar]

The difference between an Iron Golem and warforged is essentially the same difference with tanks and infantry.

A tank in many ways is superior to infantry. Very little that is man portable can do more than scratch a main battle tank. Yes, there are specialized anti-tank weapons, but, if the infantry lacks those, there's not much they can do to the tank. Tanks are faster, and carry far superior firepower.

Yet, the bulk of any army is infantry. Why?

The answer isn't all that difficult. While tanks can take ground, they can't hold it very well. A stopped tank is much more vulnerable than a tank on the move. By trying to hold ground with a tank, you rob it of much of its advantages. There is also the problems of maneuverability. Tanks can't go through forests. Tanks have difficulty with very rough terrain. A steep banked river with no bridge is a major impediment. Tanks are also far more expensive than infantry.

Now, an iron golem is mindless. Trapping one would not be all that difficult. Dig a big hole and lead it. Once it falls in the hole, destroy it. Golems would have difficulty crossing forests simply because of their size. As was mentioned, cost is a huge factor as well.

Sure, that iron golem makes a pretty good shock troop. But, as a defensive troop? Very poor. As an intelligence troop? Very poor. An iron golem is a one trick pony and a very, very expensive one at that.

 

[Barak]

That assumes the golem gets within melee reach. Being intelligent (and having skill points to put into Listen and Spot), the warforged battalion (c'mon, it's 100 of them) will definitely know the golem is coming. Make that 90 warforged, with 9 being Artificer 2 instead of Ftr 2 (they serve as "medics"), with wands of electric ray of frost. With the remaining cash you buy adamantine arrows for the warforged. The Iron Golem will be scrap metal before reaching any of the warforged. Heck, 10 of our warforged offer to hold the golem back (it's slowed by the wands), while the archers rain adamantine on it. So we're looking at a possible loss of 15,000 gp vs. the other guy's 150,000.

Stone Dog -> 150,000 is the market price of an iron golem (cost to create is about 80,000 gp).

Now you're given them levels, and counting them as 1,500gp from the factory floor. I dunno how much warforged use to cost, but I doubt it was 1,500gp. And sure, you couild equip your warforged with those wands, but that seems to assume they somehow know they'll face an Iron Golem.

To go on, I guess I'd need to know how much house Cannith (ot whatever) used to charge for a warforged.

 

[Hellcow]

Now you're given them levels, and counting them as 1,500gp from the factory floor. I dunno how much warforged use to cost, but I doubt it was 1,500gp. And sure, you couild equip your warforged with those wands, but that seems to assume they somehow know they'll face an Iron Golem.

To go on, I guess I'd need to know how much house Cannith (ot whatever) used to charge for a warforged.

I believe that in this, they are actually quoting me. My assertion has always been that the typical warforged soldier was a 2nd-level PC-class character (usually fighter). Lacking another basis for pricing, I chose to use Lords of Madness's slavery system. By this, a 2nd-level PC class character normally costs 400 gp. Extremely marketable qualities such as great strength or valuable skill can increase price by "two, three, or four times as much." As such, my assertion was that a 2nd-level adamantine body warforged costs between 1,200 to 1,500 gp, at the DM's discretion.

And before one jumps on the "but it's got adamantine!, it's got to be more expensive than that" wagon, this would be true if Cannith needed to supply adamantine ore for the creation process. If you read the Dragonshards about the warforged, you'll see that this is not the case. The key is the eldritch machine. The components of a warforged body - including any adamantine or mithral - are essentially fabricated by the creation forge. And when the warforged dies, these componets rapidly degrade, so you can't make vast sums killing and selling your warforged.

In any case, yes, I consider 1,500 gp a reasonable price for a 2nd-level warforged soldier with Adamantine Body.

As for "Warforged only exist for metagame reasons"... I suppose. From the begining, one of the core ideas of Eberron was to explore the ways in which civilization would adapt magic to daily life, including communication, transportation, and warfare. Golems have always been part of D&D, and the concept of a lower-cost, lower-power golem seemed logical. Beyond that, I love the idea of the weapon of war that is now unwanted in a post-war era. I wanted the warforged as a symbol of Eberron: a world of magic, and a world scarred by battle. Metagame? Maybe. But certainly appropriate to the world.

Oh, and John Snow, *I* don't like commonplace resurrection, which I think should have a major impact on society. My views on this matter can be found on page 20 of Sharn: City of Towers, where I say that even those who can use it rarely will (if you want the full line of reasoning, check the reference! ). It's essentially going to come down to the style of game you run. I prefer mystery and noir, where the threat of death is a very serious thing, and where when your partner gets killed, he's gone. But if you run a combat-heavy game where PC death happens every adventure, you may want to take a less restrictive approach. So the Sharn reference is MY opinion on the matter... but your mileage may vary.

 

[Stone Dog]

Thank you for your time, Mr Baker! Always a pleasure to see you up and about. Now back to the grindstone! You got Dragonshards to cut.

I kid, I kid because I love.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

See, that's where I get annoyed in evaluation of Eberron. Magic is not as common as many people seem to think in standard D&D. They see these things as "nigh inevitable" as you put it, but really, there isn't enough magic out there to have as large of an impact as some of the more vocal "D&D is too high-magic" Enworlders would have you believe. Most of the people who rant about those kinds of things haven't worked out statistics to see how rare those things actually are; they simply assume that because the PCs find them they must be everywhere, and in mass quantities.

I'm working on a thesis about the availability of magic in a standard D&D society, and the amount of impact it would be able to have on world development. Unfortunately, it's a slow process due to attention being diverted elsewhere (such as to the forums). The thing I've learned the most from writing it is that magic items are way more rare and special than I ever thought. That's probably part of why Eberron bugs me–too many +1 swords around every corner.

Look at the standard treasure tables lately? How about the suggested equipment for NPCs in the DMG? Yes, going by the Rules as Written magic really is that common. In your game world it may be less so, but it is what is maintained by the core rulebooks. And if your campaign does not follow those guidelines then that is perfectly okay - there are no game police waiting to carry you away - my own homebrew is also scant on magic items. But, for what it is worth, I am not complaining that D&D is 'too high magic' - I think that it works fine for the typical D&D settings to be that high in magic - but that the cultures would have adapted to the prevailance of magic more than is typically indicated. Eberron addresses this somewhat. But do not presume to tell the folks who are following the standard amounts of magic as a guideline that they are wrong - there is no wrong, as long as the game is fun.

And in the published worlds that I like best (Iron Kingdoms and Eberron) the industrial revolution is one of magic either in addition to or instead of technology. IK actually takes it a step furrther, with the creation of 'runeplates' and what is essentially a modular magic item creation system - spreading the XP cost to several crafter rather than one.

The Auld Grump