Eberron-as corny as I think?

[Numion]

Iron golems are usefull, and the warring nations may have bought a few, but has been pointed out several times by other posters they aren't going to win the war on their own, nor will they help prevent your losing it. There is a little thing called dissimilar assets.

Yeah, you can send an Iron Golem on a "Hulk Smash" mission, but anything more complicated isn't possible. War is about more than just killing as many people as possible (in which Iron Golems might excel). It's about seizing enemy assets and resources. It's about occupying enemy territory. It's about making enemys civilian population work for you. An Iron Golem can do none of those things.

Warforged, however, can do those things as well and better as humans. An Iron Golem mindlessly striding at 20' speed is not appropriate for most missions. As shock troops in frontlines they'd rock though. Kinda like tanks were first used in WW1 - punch through enemy lines.

It would severely suck as a fantasy infantry to see an Iron Golem belching poisonous fumes making its way towards your position.

 

[Stone Dog]

Iron golems are usefull, and the warring nations may have bought a few, but has been pointed out several times by other posters they aren't going to win the war on their own, nor will they help prevent your losing it. There is a little thing called dissimilar assets.

Uh, yeah. Did you notice the part upthread where I was making that same argument?

You brought up the idea that their clients may not be able to afford a golem, remember? "Only if their cients could afford iron golems." They can. Of course they are going to spend their money more wisely than fielding whole units of them. That is where the part where they "have purchased legions of warforged, warforged titans, eternal wands and magical items of every kind under the sun" comes in.

 

[glass]

Iron golems are usefull, and the warring nations may have bought a few, but has been pointed out several times by other posters they aren't going to win the war on their own, nor will they help prevent your losing it. There is a little thing called dissimilar assets.

Uh, yeah. Did you notice the part upthread where I was making that same argument?

I noticed the argument, as I mentioned. I didn't bother to go back and check who made it. Perhaps I should have done, but if your point wasn't that they'd be buying iron golems instead of warforged, what exactly was your point? IOW, if we agree, what are we arguing about.

You brought up the idea that their clients may not be able to afford a golem, remember? "Only if their cients could afford iron golems." They can. Of course they are going to spend their money more wisely than fielding whole units of them. That is where the part where they "have purchased legions of warforged, warforged titans, eternal wands and magical items of every kind under the sun" comes in.

Obviously, they can afford them in the sense they cost 150000 gp, and they have more money than 150000 gp available. Whether they can afford them in the context of all the other demands on their resources is a decission for the individual generals/governments/whatever to make.

In any case, as you yourself pointed out, they don't just sell to nations, but also nobles and other very wealthy individuals. Since warforged are 100th the price of iron golems, there will be quite a lot of those individuals who can afford the former but not the latter.


glass.

 

[Numion]

In any case, as you yourself pointed out, they don't just sell to nations, but also nobles and other very wealthy individuals. Since warforged are 100th the price of iron golems, there will be quite a lot of those individuals who can afford the former but not the latter.

Good point. Another point is that some of those 100 Warforgeds will survive a couple of years on the field. Unlike the Iron Golem, they will gain experience, and become even more kickass.

 

[Barak]

See.. That's what I get for talking without knowing the whole she-bang. Warforged apparently -do- use to cost 1500 GP on the open market (which incidentally means that it must have cost about 750GP to create them. Wow, cheaper than making a longsword +1!).

But anyway, my belief/point remains the same, still. Eberron -is- corny.... Just as corny as any Campaign setting, really. They all have their metagaming issues, and I'm glad, because in most cases, without them they wouldn't be as fun to game in. So when someone tells you Eberron is corny, the correct answer (IMHO, of course) is not to argue the point, but to reply "heck yeah it is! And I'm glad!"

Additionally, I tried voting for both answers, 'cause they're both right, but I couldn't.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Yes, high-level NPCs have a lot of magic. How many high-level NPCs are there among every million characters in the game world?

Doesnt even really need to be high level to be fairly magic rich. Even 1st/2nd level characters can have enough GP to have potions or scrolls. Heck, A wizard can cast Continuous flame as early as 3rd level, with a market value of 60 gp (10 GP of profit).

As long as he has a steady supply of material components for the spell, he can mass produce what's essentially a cheap magic item that's infinitely useful and permanent, and this is without draining any XP.

 

[Hellcow]

Doesnt even really need to be high level to be fairly magic rich. Even 1st/2nd level characters can have enough GP to have potions or scrolls.

True enough, though I don't believe NPCs have a right to a set amount of GP/level. If you're a 3rd-level commoner farmer, you may still be dirt poor, just good at farming. The DMG DOES provide an NPC wealth-by-level table, but the important thing to remember is that this is intended for use in determining CR. A character with a substantially higher equipment value (like Kaius in The Five Nations) should have his CR bumped up accordingly. A character with a significantly lower equipment value should potentially have CR reduced. In Sharn: City of Towers, the only member of the Watch with a magic weapon is the Watch Captain (page 137); the 3rd level fighter sergeant on page 136 only has studded leather and a morningstar (not even masterwork!), despite the DMG's assertion that he's entitled to up to 2,500 gp worth of equipment. Meanwhile the Redcloaks - the elite unit - are equipped according to the standard wealth guidelines.

So low-level magic is more commonplace and understood in Eberron, but that doesn't mean every peasant is walking around with a pocket full of potions; most commoners just aren't that wealthy. They enjoy the benefits of permanent magic within the community - such as Aundair's fountains of cleansing, public monuments which produce the cleansing effect of prestidigitation - but may have no personal magic of their own. And as has been noted before, things like teleportation and higher level effects are rare and wondrous; and if you want a powerful magic item, you will have to adventure to find it, because of the lack of powerful spellcasters around.

And this is a key point in the Iron Golem vs Warforged argument: Who's going to make your Iron Golem? By the rules, an iron golem requires a sixteenth level spellcaster! A generous DM might say that a 14th level artificer could do it, because of the bonus they have when creating magic items - but it's not like House Cannith is brimming with 14th level artificers! Now, you COULD say that they can create an eldritch machine to do the job, if you WANT iron golems around. But if you don't, the answer is quite simple. Iron golems that DO exist were created by brilliant artificers of the past, such as Aaren d'Cannith. But in the modern day, there may not BE any artificers who can produce an iron golem. By the setting as it stands, the only people who have been mentioned that could do it are Erandis d'Vol, Mordain the Fleshweaver, and members of the Council of Ashtakala - none of whom are looking to help out the war effort.

In Eberron, people recognize arcane magic as a form of science, and magic as a force that can be manipulated and controlled. But there are still very few people who can use it to its full potential - hence the "wide magic" versus the "high magic" aspect of FR, where you can't throw a rock without hitting a high level spellcaster (and do me a favor - throw it hard!).

Thanks for the birthday wishes!

 

[Hellcow]

Warforged apparently -do- use to cost 1500 GP on the open market (which incidentally means that it must have cost about 750GP to create them. Wow, cheaper than making a longsword +1!).

Correct. Because you're not making them in the same manner as you would make a +1 longsword. The key point here is that a normal person can't just say "I feel like making a warforged today!" You need the Mark of Making, and more important, you need a creation forge. That's why you don't see many new warforged - because in theory, the creation forges have all been shut down and destroyed.

So when someone tells you Eberron is corny, the correct answer (IMHO, of course) is not to argue the point, but to reply "heck yeah it is! And I'm glad!"

Actually, I agree - at least depending on the tone you're aiming for in your campaign. One of the key features of the pulps, in my opinion, is that they DON'T take themselves deadly seriously. Looking to our modern pulp movies - Indiana Jones, The Mummy - there's always a touch of humor, an awareness of how over the top things are. Now, if you're aiming for more of the Maltese Falcon flavor, you'll want to avoid this as far as you can. But yes, it's an intentionally over the top fantasy game. And proud of it.

 

[genshou]

True enough, though I don't believe NPCs have a right to a set amount of GP/level. If you're a 3rd-level commoner farmer, you may still be dirt poor, just good at farming. The DMG DOES provide an NPC wealth-by-level table, but the important thing to remember is that this is intended for use in determining CR. A character with a substantially higher equipment value (like Kaius in The Five Nations) should have his CR bumped up accordingly. A character with a significantly lower equipment value should potentially have CR reduced. In Sharn: City of Towers, the only member of the Watch with a magic weapon is the Watch Captain (page 137); the 3rd level fighter sergeant on page 136 only has studded leather and a morningstar (not even masterwork!), despite the DMG's assertion that he's entitled to up to 2,500 gp worth of equipment. Meanwhile the Redcloaks - the elite unit - are equipped according to the standard wealth guidelines.

I'm glad you pointed that out. The NPC wealth-by-level is only for "elite NPCs", generally meaning the ones who are rival adventurers or villains in their own right. You don't have to follow the guidelines for every 3rd-level captain of the guard. There are also some times when a member of the nobility might have things of greater value than the NPC wealth table suggests, such as the 6th-level Aristocrat with the large and finely furnished keep. Also, depending on the circumstances of the campaign and/or region, the standard amount of wealth in magic items may simply not be available.

So low-level magic is more commonplace and understood in Eberron, but that doesn't mean every peasant is walking around with a pocket full of potions; most commoners just aren't that wealthy. They enjoy the benefits of permanent magic within the community - such as Aundair's fountains of cleansing, public monuments which produce the cleansing effect of prestidigitation - but may have no personal magic of their own. And as has been noted before, things like teleportation and higher level effects are rare and wondrous; and if you want a powerful magic item, you will have to adventure to find it, because of the lack of powerful spellcasters around.

There's certainly quite a bit of extremely low-level magic around in Eberron, a definite improvement over standard D&D in peasants having any access to magic. Whereas before they might have saved for several months to afford a prestidigitation, now they can easily clean their dirty laundry and such. And just imagine the effects of having the flavour-changing aspect of the spell usable by the entire city–yum!

Of course, having many of these spells around is going to make life a lot easier, effectively bumping them forward out of the typical "Dark Age" feel of standard D&D. That's what I like about Eberron, it takes the amount of magic written into the setting and treats its effects on society in a realistic and serious manner. There may be other things I don't like as much, but not everybody can be a fan, right?

And this is a key point in the Iron Golem vs Warforged argument: Who's going to make your Iron Golem? By the rules, an iron golem requires a sixteenth level spellcaster! A generous DM might say that a 14th level artificer could do it, because of the bonus they have when creating magic items - but it's not like House Cannith is brimming with 14th level artificers! Now, you COULD say that they can create an eldritch machine to do the job, if you WANT iron golems around. But if you don't, the answer is quite simple. Iron golems that DO exist were created by brilliant artificers of the past, such as Aaren d'Cannith. But in the modern day, there may not BE any artificers who can produce an iron golem. By the setting as it stands, the only people who have been mentioned that could do it are Erandis d'Vol, Mordain the Fleshweaver, and members of the Council of Ashtakala - none of whom are looking to help out the war effort.

Having 16th-level spellcasters around willing to create golems is already almost impossible in standard D&D. In Eberron, I'd pretty much give up before I started to look. We wouldn't want hordes of iron golems running around willy-nilly in any stable setting, anyway.

In Eberron, people recognize arcane magic as a form of science, and magic as a force that can be manipulated and controlled. But there are still very few people who can use it to its full potential - hence the "wide magic" versus the "high magic" aspect of FR, where you can't throw a rock without hitting a high level spellcaster (and do me a favor - throw it hard!).

This is a popular and common misconception about the Realms. If you look at the continental population vs. the number of spellcasters, FR isn't far off from standard D&D. I think the reason people think the Realms are overrun with high-level mages is because they see a bunch of them detailed in the books and forget to take into account the millions of ordinary people in each country. While there are a certain Seven plus Elmunchkin who kind of extend beyond non-epic levels by just a bit, if you ignore them the 16th-level Sorcerer or Wizard who is at the top of the pecking order in a region with a few million people is entirely appropriate for standard D&D. It's kind of nice to see someone take a deviation from the standard and work a setting out using it, though.

And really, with the population of Aber-Toril, why is anyone surprised there are a dozen epic-level characters running about?

Thanks for the birthday wishes!

 

[Stone Dog]

By the setting as it stands, the only people who have been mentioned that could do it are Erandis d'Vol, Mordain the Fleshweaver, and members of the Council of Ashtakala - none of whom are looking to help out the war effort.

Oohhhh ho ho ho! <devilish laugh!>

It would be like "Needful Things" on a continental scale. A few small armouries of warmachines, constructs and cursed magical items ready to be distributed to the right people at the right times wouldn't go amiss. A little Mr Morden, a little Mr Gaunt and it becomes a race to find out just what nation is going to crack first and how to send the destiny of Khorvaire down one path of the Prophecy instead of on a death spiral down to an escalated war!