[Eberron] How are YOU going to handle the NPC level issue?

[Desdichado]

There has been a lot of talk here about the fact that most of the NPCs in Eberron are of mid level. If you are running an Eberron campaign, what do you plan to do to challenge your high-level NPCs?

Throw PCs at them?

Actually, I don't run Eberron, I play in it, and run a different game entirely. But if I were running Eberron, it wouldn't be an issue anyway. I don't really much like the game anymore after about 10-12th level or so. It's more annoying than fun for me. I have a feeling that we'll be unlikely to play our Eberron game beyond "mid" level also, so again, won't be an issue.

 

[fredramsey]

First, it would be interesting to start a thread about low-level ways for the resources of a kingdom to take out a 20th level wizard.

Second, I am addressing those people who put down Eberron because there aren't dozens of high-level NPCs stomping around in it. Those of us who like Eberron think this is just fine.

Yes, the whole point is that the PCs will eventually become very powerful. That does not automatically make them able to take over the world. It's a little more complicated than showing up at the castle gate and saying, "I can cast 9th level spells. Please give me the crown and the loyalty of the army."

There is absoluetly nothing wrong with embracing the power level characters have as they gain levels. There is nothing that says that a campaign MUST retain it's static nature because NPC's are written a certain way. What if one of the characters actually comes from a noble house and uses steath and guile to take it over? Is he now a super villain despite having some from the same house?

You and I are seeing things from a different light. In Eberron, high level characters WILL shake the campaign setting simply because there aren't any and they SHOULD be allowed to take the campaign in directions that the players are interested in. People don't complain about the uber NPC's in the Forgotten Realms because they like.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Why is why my first sentence in my first post on this subject is... "Well, a lot of it really depends on the level and background of the characters."

I like Eberron. I see the whole setting just waiting for those high level characters to come out. I'm willing to bet that there will be more information on handling these types of issues as it comes down the line.

And, as much as I hate to hammer it in, in D&D, if you have the power, pretty much everything is going to fall in line, at least for a little while. Kinda like Scarface! Imagine if the wizard did come over to the castle, was denied and destroyed it, used several summon monster spells to take out the army without getting his own hands dirty (imagine a wizard with the template feat from Dragon magazine that allows max hit points and augmented conjuration feat from the Player's Handbook where creautres get +4 str and +4 con) and you're looking at a copmlete take-over. Imagine that said wizard then just goes about his daily business while putting his own council in place to handle the day to day affaris. A new dynasty could be founded right there.

D&D doesn't have to be played this way of course. There are many options like planar exploration or a little trip to Ravenloft but I think it's important to note that certain people like playing D&D that way and there's nothing wrong with it.

First, it would be interesting to start a thread about low-level ways for the resources of a kingdom to take out a 20th level wizard.

Second, I am addressing those people who put down Eberron because there aren't dozens of high-level NPCs stomping around in it. Those of us who like Eberron think this is just fine.

Yes, the whole point is that the PCs will eventually become very powerful. That does not automatically make them able to take over the world. It's a little more complicated than showing up at the castle gate and saying, "I can cast 9th level spells. Please give me the crown and the loyalty of the army."

 

[Spatula]

A king would most likely be an Expert.

I think it's more likely that a king would be an Aristocrat.

 

[fredramsey]

Actually, it's very simple to imagine what would happen next (that is, if you can actually summon enough monsters to defeat 10,000 infantry, 5,000 heavy horse, 3,000 archers with longbows, and 100 mages with wands of Magic Missile...), every other kingdom in the world would sit up and take notice. They would say, "We're next, folks." And then the 20th level wizard would have to take on ALL the armies of the world.

A 20th level wizard is quite powerful. But he is not a god. Which reminds me, in a world where the gods are real, they might have something to say about that too.

Why is why my first sentence in my first post on this subject is... "Well, a lot of it really depends on the level and background of the characters."

I like Eberron. I see the whole setting just waiting for those high level characters to come out. I'm willing to bet that there will be more information on handling these types of issues as it comes down the line.

And, as much as I hate to hammer it in, in D&D, if you have the power, pretty much everything is going to fall in line, at least for a little while. Kinda like Scarface! Imagine if the wizard did come over to the castle, was denied and destroyed it, used several summon monster spells to take out the army without getting his own hands dirty (imagine a wizard with the template feat from Dragon magazine that allows max hit points and augmented conjuration feat from the Player's Handbook where creautres get +4 str and +4 con) and you're looking at a copmlete take-over. Imagine that said wizard then just goes about his daily business while putting his own council in place to handle the day to day affaris. A new dynasty could be founded right there.

D&D doesn't have to be played this way of course. There are many options like planar exploration or a little trip to Ravenloft but I think it's important to note that certain people like playing D&D that way and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Actually, it's very simple to imagine what would happen next (that is, if you can actually summon enough monsters to defeat 10,000 infantry, 5,000 heavy horse, 3,000 archers with longbows, and 100 mages with wands of Magic Missile...), every other kingdom in the world would sit up and take notice. They would say, "We're next, folks." And then the 20th level wizard would have to take on ALL the armies of the world.

A 20th level wizard is quite powerful. But he is not a god. Which reminds me, in a world where the gods are real, they might have something to say about that too.

But see, if it's a 20th level party...and besides, that gets into the whole "Scarface" thing no? Wizard with his scrolls of Meteor Swarm... "Say Hello to my little friend!"

No seriously though, where are you getting some of those numbers? Maybe I'm not reading Eberron close enough but most of the countries don't have those types of numbers in one spot, ready to move. This is what makes a high level character so dangerous. One individual with vast amounts of power. How long is it going to take to assemble, train, and move that army? Don't forget to feed it. "Man, we finally made it to this country,... what do you mean the wizard teleported out and only left this odd glowing piece of fire... " (and there goes the empowered-maximized fireball...)

And no, I doubt that ALL the armies of the world would get together because things usually don't work that way. One of the other countries would probably ally with the wizard. Heck, you were talking about the high level characters doing things for people. What if the wizard did it as a favor for someone? Now the Wizard's got his own country plus an ally.

You seem really set on not letting the characters use their full range of powers when it comes to changing the setting. Or am I reading things wrong here?

 

[fredramsey]

Yes, you are reading me wrong.

However, the Eberron campaign takes place a mere 2 years after the end of a continent-wide war that lasted 102 years. The army numbers I quoted there are probably quite small. The CS book does not go into details about the standing armies (I'm sure the 5 Nations sourcebook to come will mention them).

Scarface, I doubt, tried to take on the US army. Oh, and someone destroyed an entire country in a matter of minutes. But, it was NOT someone who was 20th level, I can assure you. House Cannith was probably experimenting with a doomsday device. This has not been gone over in the setting.

So there are kingdoms out there that still have large standing armies. Not to mention the Warforged, which, if the scenario you point out happened, there would be at least a couple of nations that would put in more orders for Warforged from House Cannith. Their resistances to certain spells would come in handy.

Fact of the matter is, yes, I expect the high level characters to affect the setting. That is the whole point. But they are not going to roll over the continent and take it over by force. If kingdoms worth of soldiers, mages, and clerics couldn't do it in 100 years, I don't care if it's 6 20th level characters, they aren't going to have any easier time of it! I don't see why that is so hard to accept.

But see, if it's a 20th level party...and besides, that gets into the whole "Scarface" thing no? Wizard with his scrolls of Meteor Swarm... "Say Hello to my little friend!"

No seriously though, where are you getting some of those numbers? Maybe I'm not reading Eberron close enough but most of the countries don't have those types of numbers in one spot, ready to move. This is what makes a high level character so dangerous. One individual with vast amounts of power. How long is it going to take to assemble, train, and move that army? Don't forget to feed it. "Man, we finally made it to this country,... what do you mean the wizard teleported out and only left this odd glowing piece of fire... " (and there goes the empowered-maximized fireball...)

And no, I doubt that ALL the armies of the world would get together because things usually don't work that way. One of the other countries would probably ally with the wizard. Heck, you were talking about the high level characters doing things for people. What if the wizard did it as a favor for someone? Now the Wizard's got his own country plus an ally.

You seem really set on not letting the characters use their full range of powers when it comes to changing the setting. Or am I reading things wrong here?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Well, how long are you assuming it's going to take the characters to rise to power? And who says that the characters have to take over the entire continent? They could easily take over a country or two.

It could lead to some great role playing potential. I mean imagine if they went into the Mournlands for example and wiped out the Lord of Blades. For say, 4-6 20th level characters, he wouldn't represent much of a challenge, even if they teleported into the middle of his camp. Who rules the Mournlands now?

Or what if they took over one country and did rally the other countries about them? So they have to hit the road.... wherever they go, they are not going to be messed with. "Man, I wish the army hadn't left... now these crazy people have teleported over here..." Scarface didn't have to take on the 'US Army' as you put it. That's the wrong type of campaign mode. He took out the drug lords of his caliber and those immediatly above him and become one of them until he bothered the wrong person. Heck, imagine new warforged coming out again. That in and of itself would be a campaign event worthy of the making. BUT... what's to stop the 20th level characters, especially if one of them is a forger himself, from making their own warforged armies? NOTHING. They'd have more knowledge on how to do so almost by virtue of their ranks and experience.

And who says that it all has to be done in one session? Heck, there could be campaigns worth of adventure in the players taking over things or making political alliances enough to do so.

And the reason why 100 years of war went on... the PC's werent there. No, seriously, NPC's are stupid. Eberron does some great things with the d20 system and the base assumption of magic, but PC's are there not to 'live' in the setting but to maximize every game advantage that they have.

Have you read the Complete Warrior? There's an interesting section in there that talks about running war and mentions that there are basically two models. One, the classic model of ancient warfare and two, the modern model where the players are basically special units who can do much more than knights and templars ever could.

Yes, you are reading me wrong.

However, the Eberron campaign takes place a mere 2 years after the end of a continent-wide war that lasted 102 years. The army numbers I quoted there are probably quite small. The CS book does not go into details about the standing armies (I'm sure the 5 Nations sourcebook to come will mention them).

Scarface, I doubt, tried to take on the US army. Oh, and someone destroyed an entire country in a matter of minutes. But, it was NOT someone who was 20th level, I can assure you. House Cannith was probably experimenting with a doomsday device. This has not been gone over in the setting.

So there are kingdoms out there that still have large standing armies. Not to mention the Warforged, which, if the scenario you point out happened, there would be at least a couple of nations that would put in more orders for Warforged from House Cannith. Their resistances to certain spells would come in handy.

Fact of the matter is, yes, I expect the high level characters to affect the setting. That is the whole point. But they are not going to roll over the continent and take it over by force. If kingdoms worth of soldiers, mages, and clerics couldn't do it in 100 years, I don't care if it's 6 20th level characters, they aren't going to have any easier time of it! I don't see why that is so hard to accept.

 

[fredramsey]

Well, this is a pointless discussion. I'll let someone else take it from here.

But you did argue part of my point for me with Scarface. He wasn't a 20th level character. I haven't seen the movie, but I would be good money it was more about his charisma, followers, and tactics more about how well he could aim.

And that's my point exactly. You seem to be under the impression that high level characters have enough power to run roughshod over the world. If you want to think that way, fine. But I tell you what. You create your 20th level party. I'll create 5 nations worth of standing armies, and we'll go at it.

Or, I'll just catch your wizard sleeping, and tie him up and gag him. Then I'll thrust a sword through his freakin' neck.

Well, how long are you assuming it's going to take the characters to rise to power? And who says that the characters have to take over the entire continent? They could easily take over a country or two.

It could lead to some great role playing potential. I mean imagine if they went into the Mournlands for example and wiped out the Lord of Blades. For say, 4-6 20th level characters, he wouldn't represent much of a challenge, even if they teleported into the middle of his camp. Who rules the Mournlands now?

Or what if they took over one country and did rally the other countries about them? So they have to hit the road.... wherever they go, they are not going to be messed with. "Man, I wish the army hadn't left... now these crazy people have teleported over here..." Scarface didn't have to take on the 'US Army' as you put it. That's the wrong type of campaign mode. He took out the drug lords of his caliber and those immediatly above him and become one of them until he bothered the wrong person. Heck, imagine new warforged coming out again. That in and of itself would be a campaign event worthy of the making. BUT... what's to stop the 20th level characters, especially if one of them is a forger himself, from making their own warforged armies? NOTHING. They'd have more knowledge on how to do so almost by virtue of their ranks and experience.

And who says that it all has to be done in one session? Heck, there could be campaigns worth of adventure in the players taking over things or making political alliances enough to do so.

And the reason why 100 years of war went on... the PC's werent there. No, seriously, NPC's are stupid. Eberron does some great things with the d20 system and the base assumption of magic, but PC's are there not to 'live' in the setting but to maximize every game advantage that they have.

Have you read the Complete Warrior? There's an interesting section in there that talks about running war and mentions that there are basically two models. One, the classic model of ancient warfare and two, the modern model where the players are basically special units who can do much more than knights and templars ever could.

 

[Victim]

My players wanted to go explore Argonnessen. Problem solved.