[Eberron] How are YOU going to handle the NPC level issue?

[smilinggm]

Where is it written that the NPC's have to stay mid-level as the PC's Advance in levels. Important NPC's Should not live in temporal stasis. They should improve and evolve as the PC's do. NPC's should have a chance to react to the changes that the PC's Bring to the world. And if that means that the NPC's get advanced in level from time to time that is fine with me.

 

[Doug McCrae]

If you are running an Eberron campaign, what do you plan to do to challenge your high-level PCs?

With monsters.

 

[LostSoul]

And then the 20th level wizard would have to take on ALL the armies of the world.

Only if he wants to. A 20th level wizard has killer mobility, and I doubt anyone could find him if he was Mind Blanked 24/7.


I ran into something like this in a homebrew campaign. I just decided that one part of the campaign world was "higher level" in general. And the NPCs took notice of the PCs and started trying to do something about them (by sending in squads of lower-level NPCs to wipe them out, usually). Some recurring characters continued to grow in level along with the PCs.

 

[JoeGKushner]

But I tell you what. You create your 20th level party. I'll create 5 nations worth of standing armies, and we'll go at it.

Or, I'll just catch your wizard sleeping, and tie him up and gag him. Then I'll thrust a sword through his freakin' neck.

Dude, this scenario is NEVER going to happen. Five nations are not going to get together to tackle one dude. Like I've said many times, some of those nations would consider what the mage did good and ally with him. You keep talking about 'role playing' and then thinking that five seperate nations are going to forget ALL of their differences and ALL of the differences they might've had with this one country that the wizard took over. I mean, are these countries stupid all of a sudden?

And what about the campaign ideas that could spring forth from this type of thing? Imagine that they start training new cades of wizards... perhaps a way to introduce war wizards and battle sorcereres (miniature handbook or complete arcane and unearthed arcana varaint) into the campaign.

And a 20th level wizard is not going to be the type to not have massive amounts of protection about him when sleeping. I mean think about it, there are so many ward and protection spells in the basic book alone. If you've got books like the Complete Arcane or are allowing 3rd party spellls... man, I've seen some truly devistating things done with an 8th level spell from the Complete Book of Eldrich Might that makes a clone of yourself. Not not all of the defensive spells have their old time durations but heck, a carefully worded wish, a powerful spell at 9th level, is going to make sure that no wizard is stabbed in the neck while he's sleeping.

Teleport, Wish, Meteor Swarm... these are in essence nucular weapons in a game where no one is above 15th level. I can just see a wizard holding a kingdom hostage like in Die Hard. "Do we need another demonstration..."

I'm not saying a 20th level wizard is invincible but I'm saying that standard tactics are not going to work on him. He's not going to sit there and play tag with these armies. He's going to use his spells and his best factor, mobility, to take them out. And as I've noted, he's not going to just fight the military.

A mage with teleport makes the perfect terrorist or assassin. Not everyplace, especially in the 'low power' common mage world of Eberron, is going to have teleport protection.

"I told your government to stop hounding me. NOw they have 15,000 thousand of your troops in my kingdom. I hate to cast this enlarged maximized fireball in the market but they leave me no choice..."

Have you played a lot of high level campaigns? I'm asking because you seem to be seriously underestimating the ability of a 20th level character, much less a group, to really mess with a campaign.

And note, I've mentioned several other 'role playing' elements here, especially for a rogue or a fighter who comes from one of the houses. Your main arguement seems to be taht there is no way that any of these high level characters could assume positions of power, even if they were born into the political houses the rule the setting.

History is full of nobles who didn't fight. D&D isn't history. The closest you might be able to come is with old westerns with one dude comes in and cleans up the whole town and leaves. Think of adventurers of 20th level like super heroes or think of the A-Team but like one thousand times more effective.

 

[nothing to see here]

I might interject that, unless your a WOTC purist, some third party publishes have given us some creative ways of reconcilling character level and political power.

I haven't played Eberron yet, though I've given it a read. And what jumped out at me was how compatible the setting would be with "Dynasties and Demagogues", which I believe won an ENie for best rules supplement. The sourcebook allows you to add class levels in classes such as 'diplomat', 'politician', 'conspiracy leader', and 'demagogue' and the abilities granted, while formidable -- are complete non-combat based. The book gives a mechanical definition to those intangible sources of power -- that are being argued about.

 

[hong]

So power, in the real world or Eberron is not always about the combat skills of an individual. The king may only be a 5th level fighter, but his army is quite powerful. You can't normally just waltz into the king's castle and murder him.

In D&D, you can....


Hong "this post brought to you by the letters B, S and T" Ooi

 

[JoeGKushner]

At high level, I expect the PCs to be carrying out dangerous missions FOR someone, or they could try to establish their own kingdom/domain. I don't see the need for dozens of epic-level NPCs running around.

Thoughts?

Getting back to your original post, I guess the real question is why FOR someone? Why not for themselves?

High level characters have access to abilities that go way beyond anything a standard kingdom, or even the best spy carde could ever dream about. They will be looking for those powerful artifacts. They will be making those alliances with those powerful factions. They will be doing things to further their OWN power.

20th level characters do not have to be wandering vagrants looking for a handout from a noble like 1st level characters tend to be. At 20th level, they are the patrons. They are the power behind the throne.

Here's another more recent thing you might want to check out. UIt's a comic, I think it's called Supreme Power about a 'Superman' style entity (Hyperion from the old Squadron Supreme) reimainged for the modern world. The military cannot stop him. They just don't have the necessary tools like firepower and mobility to keep up with him. A group of 20th level characters is much like that.

At this point, Hyperion is wondeing what HE wants to do, which is MY point. 20th level characters are going to decide which way the campaign moves in. Can the campaign effect them? Sure it can but much like the Bourne Supremacy, if you push too hard, the whole thing will collapse simply because it has to at that power level.

 

[Henry]

Fred, I think you're using the wrong forces to tackle Joe's Wizard.

The issue of high-level PC's running amok in Eberron has come up on WotC's forums several times; alas, I can't find the BEAUTIFUL thread that Keith Baker posted to that addresses what he would do in a situation like that. The two things to remember are:

1) Anyone who cannot be tackled directly can be tackled indirectly. There are STILL PC's up to 11th to 12th level in the world; for gods' sakes, there's a 17th level Inspired Psion living right in Sharn! Psion aside, House Thuranni still fields the most talented assassins in the world, and a ton of money and magic; If they were called upon, they could work a plan to catch the wizard at his most vulnerable (mind blank de darned; good old Gather Information, Hiding, and Diplomacy, mixed with a few judicious dispel magics work just fine for infiltration) and use a Keeper's Fang to take care of business. Now, if the player of said mage can think far enough ahead to handle this situation, then good for the player; my mission is accomplished!!! He had a good time playing a country-conquering mage, I had fun coming up with things to challenge him - and Eberron be damned, that's what the game is for. But preparation and mid-level (9th-11th level) elite forces can still challenge a high-level character.

2) Throw all NPC's out the door; the evil organizations and entities in Khorvaire will look at this 20th level power-player as a threat and include him in their schemes. Has this 20th level wizard just set up his own ruling body? He'll have some real fun when he finds out at an inopportune time that the Lords of Dust own the loyalty of half his council after a few months of seduction, blackmail and planning. Or perhaps his most trusted cohort (or a few dozen underlings) have been mind seeded by the Dreaming Dark, or replaced by a changeling assassin who waits for the right time to strike - maybe when the wizard is preparing his spells, or when he's in the privy. The Lords, The Cults of the Dragon Below, the Dreaming Dark, all these may or may not take kindly to having all their plans disrupted by some upstart (powerful though he may be) who has just cleaned house on all their secret agents, and now they have to go back through and seed NEW agents in the new regime...

In short, If you want to play the DM vs. PC game, the DM will win, every time, and maybe lose due to hurt feeling between players. However, NEVER let it be said that there are no challenges for an out-of-control player who wants to wreck society, because if you can challenge them, then you can entertain them.

My two cents...

 

[JoeGKushner]

Now, if the player of said mage can think far enough ahead to handle this situation, then good for the player; my mission is accomplished!!! He had a good time playing a country-conquering mage, I had fun coming up with things to challenge him - and Eberron be damned, that's what the game is for. But preparation and mid-level (9th-11th level) elite forces can still challenge a high-level character.

In short, If you want to play the DM vs. PC game, the DM will win, every time, and maybe lose due to hurt feeling between players. However, NEVER let it be said that there are no challenges for an out-of-control player who wants to wreck society, because if you can challenge them, then you can entertain them.

My two cents...

Henry, you've got it straight on the head! The game master must be fluid to game. He must allow the players to USE their abilities that they've fought long and hard to earn.

I'm a DM most of the time. The scnearios I'm talking about aren't those that I've created, they're ones I've GMed where the players in essence took over a few small towns and created an alliance of small towns and forged a small country. They had to take out the corrupt leaders (and they just walked up to the door basically) and fight them, and their assassins, and their minions, and gain the alliances, which often called on them doing quest X, Y, or Z, or in some instances, just outright buying them.

At some point, a character is going to stand up on his own. If you try and force them not to, why should they play?

"Dude, I'm 20th level. I'm not going to retrieve the scepter for the king. I'm going to get it for myself."

"Uh... the king commands you to or he'll have you're family executed."

"I use Power Word Kill on him for daring to even suggest that!"

"Roll initiative!"

 

[fredramsey]

Thanks, Heny, you said it perfectly.

It's not my intention to advocate a DM versus party. I'm only saying that 20th level isn't the end-all of power, and you've pointed out several ways to enforce that.

As far as taking over a country, the easiest way has nothing to do with what your BAB or Spells per Day is. And you don't have to be 20th level to do it. It's called politics and alliances. And those will beat 20th level any day.

Fred, I think you're using the wrong forces to tackle Joe's Wizard.

The issue of high-level PC's running amok in Eberron has come up on WotC's forums several times; alas, I can't find the BEAUTIFUL thread that Keith Baker posted to that addresses what he would do in a situation like that. The two things to remember are:

1) Anyone who cannot be tackled directly can be tackled indirectly. There are STILL PC's up to 11th to 12th level in the world; for gods' sakes, there's a 17th level Inspired Psion living right in Sharn! Psion aside, House Thuranni still fields the most talented assassins in the world, and a ton of money and magic; If they were called upon, they could work a plan to catch the wizard at his most vulnerable (mind blank de darned; good old Gather Information, Hiding, and Diplomacy, mixed with a few judicious dispel magics work just fine for infiltration) and use a Keeper's Fang to take care of business. Now, if the player of said mage can think far enough ahead to handle this situation, then good for the player; my mission is accomplished!!! He had a good time playing a country-conquering mage, I had fun coming up with things to challenge him - and Eberron be damned, that's what the game is for. But preparation and mid-level (9th-11th level) elite forces can still challenge a high-level character.

2) Throw all NPC's out the door; the evil organizations and entities in Khorvaire will look at this 20th level power-player as a threat and include him in their schemes. Has this 20th level wizard just set up his own ruling body? He'll have some real fun when he finds out at an inopportune time that the Lords of Dust own the loyalty of half his council after a few months of seduction, blackmail and planning. Or perhaps his most trusted cohort (or a few dozen underlings) have been mind seeded by the Dreaming Dark, or replaced by a changeling assassin who waits for the right time to strike - maybe when the wizard is preparing his spells, or when he's in the privy. The Lords, The Cults of the Dragon Below, the Dreaming Dark, all these may or may not take kindly to having all their plans disrupted by some upstart (powerful though he may be) who has just cleaned house on all their secret agents, and now they have to go back through and seed NEW agents in the new regime...

In short, If you want to play the DM vs. PC game, the DM will win, every time, and maybe lose due to hurt feeling between players. However, NEVER let it be said that there are no challenges for an out-of-control player who wants to wreck society, because if you can challenge them, then you can entertain them.

My two cents...