[Eberron] How are YOU going to handle the NPC level issue?

[fredramsey]

After going back and reading your previous posts to make sure, you mentioned alliances and building an army exactly ONCE.

The rest of the time was spent talking about Meteor Storms, flying, teleportation, scarface, "my little friend", etc.

Listen, if you want to play tabletop Diablo, that's you're business. But unless you stack the deck heavily in the PC's favor, then waltzing into the palace and killing even 100 people is not going to win you a kingdom by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm a DM, not a Playstation 2. Everything doesn't happen in the game just due to a die roll, never has. But that's not even the point I'm making.

Unless I have every wizard, sorcerer, knight, cleric, and peasant bend over and drop trou at the sight of your 20th level character, taking a kingdom by force is not going to be a walk in the park. In all your posts except for one on the first page, it is.

If you want to run such a video game campaign, fine. But man, the immaturity level needed to go, "K001 d00d! We punk'd that king man! Now we run things!. Good thing I didn't roll a one (snicker, snicker).

Yes, Henry did say the could win. But it seems like you glossed over everything before that.

Thanks for the cheap entertainment. I haven't laughed so hard since Beavis and Butthead.

No, Henry states that the party could and that there would be repercussions and that if they planned well, they would get away with it and everyone would have fun. My point was that you're going to have to allow the campaign a lot of flexibility in dealing with high level characters.



No, Herny was noting that assassins and other elites could work against the characters but noted that the characters could once again win and that the game would still be fun.



Right, but since the king is often a lower level individual, he's not going to have a lot of choice about it. Once again, the MOBILITY, the sheer versitlity in movement that characters have is too great. Even in Eberron with it's more advancement movement like ships and trains.



And you'll note that I mentioned this myself several times. Fighter getting the leadership feat, hiring his own mercenaries. The mage perhaps using his own craft abilities to create golems and other creatures. In Eberron that are probably only going to be a handful of people that can create an Iron Golem and the PCs are now among those ranks. Rogues gaining their own thieves guild. Heck, this is just assuming the 'base' classes. What if one of the players is an assassin and has his own assassin's guild?



Which is why no party is going to go toe to toe with an army. I've mentioned that several times as well. That due to the party's mobility, that the army will never catch them. And heck, even if the army did manage to catch up to them, unless it's in a magic dead zone, it won't matter. Yes, there will be a lot of '20's but home many of those will be confirmed criticals? Not many. Mages will probably have spells like Stoneskin so those hits will mean little and the cleric will have spells like heal ready in case a few lucky shots do go in.

And just so we're on the same page, here's Henry's Quote.

Note that he fully accepts that the players can WIN and that the game can be good.

You've also skipped my comments that it's not necessary that the players are working for other people at 20th level. What is wrong with the players taking the initiative and not being servants at 20th level?

You've also not mentioned your own experience at running high level campaigns and seeing how they play out. I've had a lot of it as a GM. Trust me, the players are not stupid. Some will allow themselves to be 'shackled' just so that the story or game can get it but they have the power to heavily influence the setting.

And heck, look at Hong's post. He's dead right. In D&D, you can waltz into the town and take it over. Once again, it's not history, it's D&D. You're not reading a play, you're involved in an interactive game. You don't control the players, you present options.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Listen, if you want to play tabletop Diablo, that's you're business. But unless you stack the deck heavily in the PC's favor, then waltzing into the palace and killing even 100 people is not going to win you a kingdom by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree with this statement 100%. I'm not saying it's going to win them the kingdom. I'm saying that 20th level characters in campaigns without matching NPC's, can pretty much do whatever they want. Am I saying that there aren't consequences? No. They will have to face the assassins, etc... but you seem to be saying that every other kingdom is just going to team up and hunt the characters down... very computer game simulation like to me.

Unless I have every wizard, sorcerer, knight, cleric, and peasant bend over and drop trou at the sight of your 20th level character, taking a kingdom by force is not going to be a walk in the park. In all your posts except for one on the first page, it is.

Well, I could be miscommunicating. It is the problem of the internet after all. I never meant to imply that it would be a walk in the park but killing all the rulers and wiping out major supplies and resoruces would be. You seem to indicate that the players could NEVER do it and that the whole world would form alliances against them the second one noble fell to a poisoned blade.

And you've dodged the whole thing about your experience with higher level campaigns, the characters working for themselves, the characters taking on their own realm, etc... Nicely done yourself.

 

[fredramsey]

I agree with this statement 100%. I'm not saying it's going to win them the kingdom. I'm saying that 20th level characters in campaigns without matching NPC's, can pretty much do whatever they want. Am I saying that there aren't consequences? No. They will have to face the assassins, etc... but you seem to be saying that every other kingdom is just going to team up and hunt the characters down... very computer game simulation like to me..

Actually, it's a lot like World War II.

Well, I could be miscommunicating. It is the problem of the internet after all. I never meant to imply that it would be a walk in the park but killing all the rulers and wiping out major supplies and resoruces would be. You seem to indicate that the players could NEVER do it and that the whole world would form alliances against them the second one noble fell to a poisoned blade.

I'm not going to repeat your posts back to you, because this is already boring me to tears. I never said they could NEVER do it. Not once. I was saying it would take more than being 20th level to do it, while you maintained that a 20th level character could do anything.

The very rarity of 20th level characters IN Eberron would make everyone take notice. Including, as many have said, the Lords of Dust and other, VERY powerful forces.

And you've dodged the whole thing about your experience with higher level campaigns, the characters working for themselves, the characters taking on their own realm, etc... Nicely done yourself.

I've DMed for 25 years and at all levels. However, I don't have to present a resume to you to refute your points. The weakness of your points makes that part easy.

Another thing the Internet makes easy is making Truth become a shouting match. But, as long as you don't go back and edit your "Scarface" posts, the extent to which you are painting yourself as a munchkin will continue to grow.

 

[Henry]

Um, Gents, let's step back be a tad more civil here. The fact that you are both agreeing with me seems to indicate all THREE of us are saying the same thing, but there's a failure to Communicate that's about "Cool Hand Luke"-sized in proportions.

 

[Henry]

Now, for specifics, to wit:

Fred, would you agree that a high-level character COULD get away with nuking a ruler and even a city or two before some kind of repercussion is organized? I think Joe understands there are consequences in such an action (he stated so), but someone who actually ethically made it to 20th level would likely not be so crass as to pull a Conan-style coup, unless he already had support of someone local. But if they planned to pull a betrayal or sudden coup, they COULD get away with some pretty massive devastation before someone says, "We've got to tame that loose bombard."

However, by the same token, In my campaign a player would have to be pretty damned cagey to pull off a massive power shift successfully. I've NEVER had a player succeed at this, because they didn't want to put the effort into being such a mover and shaker. If they did, I'd let them try, and they'd better get really smart really quick to avoid the rules exploitation I'd unleash (preferably by training the rules-gods of ENWorld on such a mental exercise ), because if they want to be Conan, then by God I'll let them be Conan - Crucifixion tree and all. If they avoid the minds of ENWorld and myself, then they win, pure and simple - and it's not a pushover victory, they accomplished something to be proud of. Rather than being like Melvin what's-his-name in the Dragon Letters Forum ten years back who said, "Stop playing Greyhawk, I've killed it all, and the gods work as slaves in my mines", they can say, "I turned King Boranel's advisors against him, Blackmailed the Mayor of Sharn, assassinated half the Sharn council and coerced the other half, and rallied the Poor unwashed of Lower Dura into nominating me to council, and used the position to institute a shift to an Oligarchy, headed by ME!" then they have something to brag about.

And I think Joe and Fred are pretty much saying the same thing.

 

[fredramsey]

Now, for specifics, to wit:

Fred, would you agree that a high-level character COULD get away with nuking a ruler and even a city or two before some kind of repercussion is organized? I think Joe understands there are consequences in such an action (he stated so), but someone who actually ethically made it to 20th level would likely not be so crass as to pull a Conan-style coup, unless he already had support of someone local. But if they planned to pull a betrayal or sudden coup, they COULD get away with some pretty massive devastation before someone says, "We've got to tame that loose bombard."

Absolutely. But, if they go about it that way, especially in Eberron, it will become increasingly unlikely that they will be able to pull it off again. And the resistance is not going to be dependent on the characters, it is going to be dependent on the setting. That little guy with the moustache didn't start his plan for global domination by walking in and shooting Churchill

However, by the same token, In my campaign a player would have to be pretty damned cagey to pull off a massive power shift successfully. I've NEVER had a player succeed at this, because they didn't want to put the effort into being such a mover and shaker. If they did, I'd let them try, and they'd better get really smart really quick to avoid the rules exploitation I'd unleash (preferably by training the rules-gods of ENWorld on such a mental exercise ), because if they want to be Conan, then by God I'll let them be Conan - Crucifixion tree and all. If they avoid the minds of ENWorld and myself, then they win, pure and simple - and it's not a pushover victory, they accomplished something to be proud of. Rather than being like Melvin what's-his-name in the Dragon Letters Forum ten years back who said, "Stop playing Greyhawk, I've killed it all, and the gods work as slaves in my mines", they can say, "I turned King Boranel's advisors against him, Blackmailed the Mayor of Sharn, assassinated half the Sharn council and coerced the other half, and rallied the Poor unwashed of Lower Dura into nominating me to council, and used the position to institute a shift to an Oligarchy, headed by ME!" then they have something to brag about.

I definitely agree with the last part of that, 100%. But all I'm hearing is how powerful Meteor Storm is, and that wizards can teleport. Big whoop. If that is all there is to taking over a kingdom, the DM isn't doing his job AFAIAC.

And I think Joe and Fred are pretty much saying the same thing.

I appreciate what you are trying to do for civility's sake, but that part I'm not so sure about.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Player's planning is going to be the biggest part of any attempted coup. As a matter of fact, I believe that player's planning, at 20th level, is going to be the biggest part of any Eberron campaign.

However, not all such coup's need to be against 'good' agents. I mentioned for example, a 20th level group going into the Mournlands and in essence taking out the Lord of Blades. For them, it wouldn't be a big issue.

I guess my main issues stem from...
1. Working for another agency. I don't see high level characters doing this. Sorry. 20th level characters are not going to bow before some fleb. It's not history, it's D&D. Leading 20th level characters around by the nose is really bad GMing in my opinion.

2. If the playes do take sever action, all of the empires getting together and linking all of their armies. Just don't see it. A comparission to World War II where other armies are involved and terittories are being lost isn't really feasible since we're talking 4-6 player characters here and in WWII, they still don't have the MOBILITY of a 20th level D&D party. (Although that might be interesting... )

 

[fredramsey]

See, Henry? This is the kind of wall I'm talking to. And it puts words in my mouth.

Never said I lead 20th level characters around. YOU said that.

You weren't talking about the Lord of Blades, you were talking about kingdoms.

Plus, you don't have to be 20th level to line your walls with lead. You don't have to be 20th level to teleport. Amazing what teleporting next to a character and hitting them with poison (as many times as is necessary). Once again, go back and read Henry's post. Without the planning you just now mentioned in your post, the fact that the characters are 20th level doesn't amount to a hill of magic beans.

Mobility, mobility, mobility. Tell me now, what level IS teleport? Or are you going to only let the characters have that spell?

What happens, do you suppose, when just 10 6th level mages casts Fireball into one spot? How about 50?

Your first paragraph about planning is on the money. The rest goes back to the whole "Scarface" thing. :\

Player's planning is going to be the biggest part of any attempted coup. As a matter of fact, I believe that player's planning, at 20th level, is going to be the biggest part of any Eberron campaign.

However, not all such coup's need to be against 'good' agents. I mentioned for example, a 20th level group going into the Mournlands and in essence taking out the Lord of Blades. For them, it wouldn't be a big issue.

I guess my main issues stem from...
1. Working for another agency. I don't see high level characters doing this. Sorry. 20th level characters are not going to bow before some fleb. It's not history, it's D&D. Leading 20th level characters around by the nose is really bad GMing in my opinion.

2. If the playes do take sever action, all of the empires getting together and linking all of their armies. Just don't see it. A comparission to World War II where other armies are involved and terittories are being lost isn't really feasible since we're talking 4-6 player characters here and in WWII, they still don't have the MOBILITY of a 20th level D&D party. (Although that might be interesting... )

 

[JoeGKushner]

It could lead to some great role playing potential. I mean imagine if they went into the Mournlands for example and wiped out the Lord of Blades. For say, 4-6 20th level characters, he wouldn't represent much of a challenge, even if they teleported into the middle of his camp. Who rules the Mournlands now?

That's from page 2 our the ongoing discussion. And no, I still don't see 10,000 archers managing to ever catch up to a 20th level party. Maybe in Grim Tales or Conan, but not Eberron.

And fredramsey, your first post is that the characters would be working "FOR" someone, emphasis yours, not mine. I'm saying at 20th level, they don't need to. They have a ton of options open to them and working for someone else doesn't necessarily have to be among them.

And as teleport is a fairly high level spell, 5th level, there are not going to be that many mages who can cast it. Certailny no army is going to be able to cast it. The closest they might be able to come is by using something like gates to gain access to predetermined locations.

As far as numerous lower level mages, It would be interesting to see how they'd overcome certain powers of a 20th level mage though. Prismatic Wall and Sphere are some great spells for example. Using Shapechange to turn into a creature immune to fire is another great spell that could easily counter all the fireballs thrown by all the mages in the world. and this isn't noting the other members of the party. 6d6 = about 21 points average, with saving throws taking that down to about 10 points average. If they have any type of energy resistance they wouldn't be able to take out a 20th level fighter very quick (assuming that we're talking about 10 mages who'd do about 100 points of damage that round.), and in a spell duel, the more experienced mage is going to have massive amounts of range on his side insuring that they never get that close. But really, this is covering the mechanics and my money is always on the 20th level characters. The only time I've seen higher level characters get taken down by lowever level ones is when it's some prewritten adventure and the main bad guy is a mage whose just stupid and his low hit point total gets him cashed.

For the record, I'm usually the GM. The scearnios I'm describing are things that COULD happen in a 20th level Eberron campagin depending, as my very first post states, based on what the players do. I understand that havoc that such high level characters could inflict on a campaign should they choose to do so. As I've mentioned before, I've seen it happen. It was a fun game as the party moved through the northlands in the (heavily modified) Forgotten Realms.

 

[Fenes]

Without entering the "20th level party vs the world" argument, I have to disagree with the assumption that just because a character is higher level means they won't bow to lower level leaders.

I play my characters as not having modern values, but medieval values, meaning that my level 7 rogue follows the orders from the level 7 sorcerer since that one is a noble, and my character was raised believing in nobles being better than commoners, and having the divine right to rule them (In the FR there is even a goddess for nobility).

If I had a lawful knight it would not even be an issue - "My liege has my loyality, as has his heir".