[Eberron] How are YOU going to handle the NPC level issue?

[JoeGKushner]

But note... Henry's idea works off of mine, that the players are actively doing somethign, not in and of themselves being controlled.

And you'll note that he states that "It's okay" if the players win because they had fun doing so.

Why do high level characters need to have a 'smack down' put on them? Why can't their build their baronies and expand their power as a right of their levels? Heck, in older editions, it was basically assumed if you built a keep. Once again D&D =! History.

 

[fredramsey]

But people aren't going to jump up out of their thrones and let the PC's sit down, any more than the dragon is going to jump up off his hoard and let the PC's take it when they walk in the cave.

The argument was, if you look back a few posts, that 20th level characters can do whatever they want because of their powers. I, and Henry, say 'taint necessarily so.

At the risk of repeating myself, 20th level powers are not a guarantee of success in such an undertaking. Henry pointed out several reasons why. You were stating, if you check back a few posts, that there was nothing that could stand in a 20th level (character or party)'s way. Very, very, very untrue.

If a party started to take a nation by force, I would feel remiss if I didn't have that nation fight back with whatever resources it had, period. It would ruin the suspension of disbelief if the king just said, "Of course! Here, take my crown, please!"

Now if the party went at it the intelligent way, by raising their own army, protecting against assassination, perhaps starting a war between two kingdoms and attacking the winner, formed alliances, etc. then they would have a much better chance of succeeding.

But there is no scroll or wand or staff of kingdom conquering. No BAB that will let you take out an army (out of just 20 soldiers, odds are that one of them will roll a 20. Multiply this by thousands). Simple math would prevent automatic success. And it would make for a boring game.

But note... Henry's idea works off of mine, that the players are actively doing somethign, not in and of themselves being controlled.

And you'll note that he states that "It's okay" if the players win because they had fun doing so.

Why do high level characters need to have a 'smack down' put on them? Why can't their build their baronies and expand their power as a right of their levels? Heck, in older editions, it was basically assumed if you built a keep. Once again D&D =! History.

 

[fredramsey]

I just noticed the "right of their levels". That cracks me up.

But note... Henry's idea works off of mine, that the players are actively doing somethign, not in and of themselves being controlled.

And you'll note that he states that "It's okay" if the players win because they had fun doing so.

Why do high level characters need to have a 'smack down' put on them? Why can't their build their baronies and expand their power as a right of their levels? Heck, in older editions, it was basically assumed if you built a keep. Once again D&D =! History.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Well, you and I are approaching the game from different angles.

By right of levels, I mean that if a character invest skill points and feats to do certain things and the GM makes it so that he can't, what is the real point of playing?
"I use my Bluff skill."

"No, you have to role play it out."

"Look, I've got an 18 charisma and the Skill Focus feat. I've spent all my skill points on it. I'm tired and just want to roll it."

"Nope. That's not role playing."

 

[fredramsey]

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Never said anything like that at all. But I'm not going to let someone say, "I use Bluff to have the king's daughter kill him." That would just be silly, and would cause laughter at even the most munchkined table.

What happened to the 20th level character killing the world argument? Avoiding that one, eh?

Well, you and I are approaching the game from different angles.

By right of levels, I mean that if a character invest skill points and feats to do certain things and the GM makes it so that he can't, what is the real point of playing?
"I use my Bluff skill."

"No, you have to role play it out."

"Look, I've got an 18 charisma and the Skill Focus feat. I've spent all my skill points on it. I'm tired and just want to roll it."

"Nope. That's not role playing."

 

[Dr Simon]

In terms of High Level Wixards causing trouble in Eberron, I think you're looking at the wrong people as opponents.

Yes, the Five Kingdoms are going to put resources into tackling such a renegade *if* he or she causes trouble directly for them. The Arcanum may not boast any Elminsters or Mordenkainens, but combined resources would be able to make some effect.

However, you're forgetting the real big heavy-hitters in Eberron aren't the Five Kingdoms, the nobility or the Dragonmarked Houses, but the other behind-the-scenes ancient evil-doers with the long view.

Vol, or the Lords of Dust, or perhaps the dragons, or the Daelkyr, or the Quori, may notice someone who runs around busting up kingdoms as he or she pleases. It might interfere with their carefully laid plans for World-Domination of their own. They might take notice....

High level play in Eberron, where most "normal" fols are low-mid level, would be more like a game of Amber, or any White Wolf game where the PCs are massively higher powered than most other people...except the other people who are just as massively powered as them and everyone lives in this little reality one step removed from normal folks.

 

[Dr Simon]

Double post, sorry!

 

[JoeGKushner]

The argument was, if you look back a few posts, that 20th level characters can do whatever they want because of their powers. I, and Henry, say 'taint necessarily so.

No, Henry states that the party could and that there would be repercussions and that if they planned well, they would get away with it and everyone would have fun. My point was that you're going to have to allow the campaign a lot of flexibility in dealing with high level characters.

At the risk of repeating myself, 20th level powers are not a guarantee of success in such an undertaking. Henry pointed out several reasons why. You were stating, if you check back a few posts, that there was nothing that could stand in a 20th level (character or party)'s way. Very, very, very untrue.

No, Herny was noting that assassins and other elites could work against the characters but noted that the characters could once again win and that the game would still be fun.

If a party started to take a nation by force, I would feel remiss if I didn't have that nation fight back with whatever resources it had, period. It would ruin the suspension of disbelief if the king just said, "Of course! Here, take my crown, please!"

Right, but since the king is often a lower level individual, he's not going to have a lot of choice about it. Once again, the MOBILITY, the sheer versitlity in movement that characters have is too great. Even in Eberron with it's more advancement movement like ships and trains.

Now if the party went at it the intelligent way, by raising their own army, protecting against assassination, perhaps starting a war between two kingdoms and attacking the winner, formed alliances, etc. then they would have a much better chance of succeeding.

And you'll note that I mentioned this myself several times. Fighter getting the leadership feat, hiring his own mercenaries. The mage perhaps using his own craft abilities to create golems and other creatures. In Eberron that are probably only going to be a handful of people that can create an Iron Golem and the PCs are now among those ranks. Rogues gaining their own thieves guild. Heck, this is just assuming the 'base' classes. What if one of the players is an assassin and has his own assassin's guild?

But there is no scroll or wand or staff of kingdom conquering. No BAB that will let you take out an army (out of just 20 soldiers, odds are that one of them will roll a 20. Multiply this by thousands). Simple math would prevent automatic success. And it would make for a boring game.

Which is why no party is going to go toe to toe with an army. I've mentioned that several times as well. That due to the party's mobility, that the army will never catch them. And heck, even if the army did manage to catch up to them, unless it's in a magic dead zone, it won't matter. Yes, there will be a lot of '20's but home many of those will be confirmed criticals? Not many. Mages will probably have spells like Stoneskin so those hits will mean little and the cleric will have spells like heal ready in case a few lucky shots do go in.

And just so we're on the same page, here's Henry's Quote.

He had a good time playing a country-conquering mage, I had fun coming up with things to challenge him - and Eberron be damned, that's what the game is for. But preparation and mid-level (9th-11th level) elite forces can still challenge a high-level character.

Note that he fully accepts that the players can WIN and that the game can be good.

You've also skipped my comments that it's not necessary that the players are working for other people at 20th level. What is wrong with the players taking the initiative and not being servants at 20th level?

You've also not mentioned your own experience at running high level campaigns and seeing how they play out. I've had a lot of it as a GM. Trust me, the players are not stupid. Some will allow themselves to be 'shackled' just so that the story or game can get it but they have the power to heavily influence the setting.

And heck, look at Hong's post. He's dead right. In D&D, you can waltz into the town and take it over. Once again, it's not history, it's D&D. You're not reading a play, you're involved in an interactive game. You don't control the players, you present options.

 

[JoeGKushner]

High level play in Eberron, where most "normal" fols are low-mid level, would be more like a game of Amber, or any White Wolf game where the PCs are massively higher powered than most other people...except the other people who are just as massively powered as them and everyone lives in this little reality one step removed from normal folks.

I argee with this 100%. Eberron does have many options to challenge high level PCs. But notice that these factions are 'reacting' to the PCs own actions. It's a good thing to me but it shows that the elements that the PC's have to worry about really aren't the NPCs, regardless of their influence.

I'm saying though, that if high level PC's that do decide to go on a path of conquest, they will not be seeing their failure through the action of mundane armies. If they want to destroy something, chances are it's going to be destroyed.

Plus, Eberron is set up the way it is so that if the PCs get to high level and *want* to take over Breland, there isn't some uberl33t NPC there to make sure that they can't. They can. The game then adjusts accordingly.

And I agree with this 100%. The game ADJUSTS accordingly. The whole world doesn't suddenly go, "You know, Breland was taken over. All of us must put aside hundreds of years of issues and unite our armies as a single force."

In such a situation, I think we'd actually see a lot of those countries become a bit more isolantionist. Heck, imagine if one of the players is from a dragonmarked house. All of a sudden everyone is going to want to know that PC's background.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Never said anything like that at all. But I'm not going to let someone say, "I use Bluff to have the king's daughter kill him." That would just be silly, and would cause laughter at even the most munchkined table.

Hmmm... You don't have to. The rogue could use bluff to assure the princess that the father was going to kill her and that she should run for her life and then he could kill the king himself. Or he could use it to get all sorts of information from the daughter. You took my exmaple of bluffing and turned it into a blood relative killing another blood relative. A bit of a stretch no? Heck, a good rogue can use bluff to hide while people are aware of you without creating an attack of opportunity!