Eberron inconsistencies

Spatula

Explorer
Paladins & Evil Clerics: This makes no sense. What I think you're failing to realize is that, unlike real-world religions, D&D isn't about evil as someone being good but overcome by temptation. In D&D evil is not just someone's sins building up, or a series of choices.
So there are no fallen paladins in D&D?

Alignment as some cosmic force doesn't really fly in Eberron, IMO. Or in any game that I've ever played in. Evil characters are evil because they're willing to hurt others to get what they want. They generally don't (cultists excluded) choose to align themselves with "cosmic evil."

A Paladin's ability to sense evil is meant to detect creatures of evil and slay them. Paladins are evil-killing machines. To doubt a paladin, a real paladin who you can presumably test as a paladin (lay on hands, alignment spells of your own, get them to hold and use a Holy Avenger sword, etc.), isn't the same thing as doubting a polygraph. You might as well doubt a magnet for finding iron!
All of those methods can be fooled, even the Holy Avenger. Detect spells can be fooled. Zone of truth and discern lies can be fooled. Every magic trump card can be trumped itself, or is simply unreliable (i.e. anything that allows a saving throw).

But more than that, being "evil" is not in itself grounds for execution in a civil society. There are all kinds of compromises that are necessary to wield power, and the authorities may not appreciate when some zealot kills one of their political allies. Or kills one of their wealthy benefactors. Or slays the head of the local criminal underworld, who had cooperated with the authorities to keep crime at an acceptable level. Or murders a respected businessman, with no proof of any actual wrongdoing. And that's assuming that the people at the top are not evil themselves... It's fine to say, "I'm a paladin! The gods speak through me, and that person deserved to be cut down in cold blood," but it's not necessarily going to save you from the dungeon or a noose for pissing off the wrong people.

As a side note, I am glad most of the alignment nonsense is gone from 4e.
100% agreement here.
 

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Aaron

First Post
With the divisions and arguments that exist in these highly specialized fields (because life is inconsistant), expecting not to run across inconsistancies in a campaign setting is a bit absurd.
Actually, since I expect to run across many inconsistencies, I asked for them before starting my campaign.

I don't think anyone will be able to solve all of them. Nor I think will be able to heal every known disease in this century. But I think we should try to solve/heal as much of them as we can.

On top of that, a lack of an explanation is not an inconsistancy. An inconsistancy is two conflicting explanations. At best it is an oxymoron, at worst it is a paradox. Lacking an explanation is an opportunity for a dungeon master (or even players) to insert his own ideas into the campaign.
I never talked about "lack of explanation".

As for the "inconsistencies" meaning, English is not my first language, so I've used the Webster dictionary online, and there I have found that the term "inconsistent" also means "incoherent or illogical in thought or actions".

And that's exactly what I meant when I asked for inconsistencies.

You're creative. Make something up.
I think the EnWorld crew can be a valuable support for DMs trying to do what you are suggesting. But thanks.
 

ValhallaGH

First Post
As for the "inconsistencies" meaning, English is not my first language, so I've used the Webster dictionary online, and there I have found that the term "inconsistent" also means "incoherent or illogical in thought or actions".

And that's exactly what I meant when I asked for inconsistencies.

So, are you more comfortable with the setting now? Do you feel like you've found, or been informed of, most of the inconsistencies unique to Eberron?

Honestly, I haven't seen all that many in the setting, nor in this thread. There are a number of unexplained things in the setting, but not many inconsistencies (that aren't in all of D&D). But I'll take another look through my books and get back to you with any I do find.
 

Aaron

First Post
So, are you more comfortable with the setting now? Do you feel like you've found, or been informed of, most of the inconsistencies unique to Eberron?
It's a work in progress. We are still discussing here.
I'm not in a hurry.
Honestly, I haven't seen all that many in the setting, nor in this thread. There are a number of unexplained things in the setting, but not many inconsistencies (that aren't in all of D&D). But I'll take another look through my books and get back to you with any I do find.
Thanks.:)
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
In reference to the "high level spellcasting" that was brought up earlier in the thread (i.e. supposedly high-level spells that seem available despite the idea that there shouldn't be enough high-level casters in Eberron to actually cast them)... this is where the concept of the schema is in play within the setting.

I don't remember exactly where the concepts of schema are full described (although they are talked about even within the introductory module in the 3E Eberron Campaign Setting), but the items are basically "directions" on how to make/cast high-level magic without needing to be a high-level caster. Thus most of the really over-the-top magical items (stuff like the Lightning Rail, airships, warforged) that would seem to need many casters with access to at the very least 7th-9th level spells... are not actually needed because using/following a schema lets you handwave away the specific spells you'd probably need to use otherwise. So long as you have a complete schema and some magical ability... casting/creating these "big" magical items or effects becomes more story-driven rather than game mechanics-driven.
 

WayneLigon

Adventurer
1) House Orien, that has been around for hundreds of years, offers expensive magical trains, but doesn't have a teleportation circle network between the major Metropolis and Cities; I don't get it.

See below.

2) Eberron is supposed to be a low level type campaign. We read that "in a world where the average soldier is a 2nd-level warrior, a 5th-level fighter can be an important individual. This is the case in Eberron."

Answer to #1: There aren't very many people at all who have the level to cast such magics. Like, maybe, 2-3 who are not PC's. The ones who might be that high a level probably have better things than making money on their minds.

Such a network would have been one of the first targets in the Last War, too, and now there's no-one that can replace it. For the same reason they haven't replaced that bridge across the isthmus between Aundaire and whatever.

The same goes for the myriad of PrCs scattered in the Eberron books: they usually require a character of at least 5th level. How many of them can I assume existent at the moment?

Most people aren't ever going to qualify for them, or have - at best - 1-2 levels in a PrC. Those would be mainly for PC's and maybe a dozen high-level NPCs. That how I usually ran it.
 

Elephant

First Post
I don't know - why can't you?

Just as a for-instance, the leadership of the Blood of Vol church are thoroughly evil - and yet, the religion is well-established in Karrnath, and many practitioners outside the 'inner circle' - those who buy into its public face - may consider it a good religion. It's entirely possible that many of the lower-level clerics of the Blood of Vol are good-aligned.

I could very much see a Paladin of the Blood making a career in Eberron. Every time you shed the blood of the wicked, you're that much closer to divinity!

... hey, that's where the scan-and-smite paladins come from! The Blood of Vol, not the Silver Flame! :lol:
 

I don't know - why can't you?

Just as a for-instance, the leadership of the Blood of Vol church are thoroughly evil - and yet, the religion is well-established in Karrnath, and many practitioners outside the 'inner circle' - those who buy into its public face - may consider it a good religion. It's entirely possible that many of the lower-level clerics of the Blood of Vol are good-aligned.

In 4e one of the character concepts I've had on the back burner for a long time is an Atheist Paladin of the Blood of Vol, causing utter consternation amongst the higher ups in the Blood (for being a Paladin and subscribing to the cover beliefs rather than the secret ones) and the other religions (an Atheist Paladin?) By 4e rules this is book-legal. And should be a blast to play.

So there are no fallen paladins in D&D?

In 4e, of course there are. Power once gained isn't revoked. In earlier editions it's easy to check. Fallen paladins (even Blackguards) lose the ability to Lay on Hands. Makes it very hard to infiltrate.

But more than that, being "evil" is not in itself grounds for execution in a civil society.

Something the staff of the News of the World a few years back are greatful for, I'm sure.

Or murders a respected businessman, with no proof of any actual wrongdoing.

Or even legal wrongdoing - see Ebeneezer scrooge.
 

Zelda Themelin

First Post
Biggest inconsistence for me about Eberron is it's divane mythology. You know, one about vague existance/lack of real gods.

I am allergic to mythologies that don't believe in themselves. I don't play Eberron for this. I own all the books and use stuff for other campaings, though.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Biggest inconsistence for me about Eberron is it's divane mythology. You know, one about vague existance/lack of real gods.

I am allergic to mythologies that don't believe in themselves.
Remote/absent/non-existent (take your pick) deities haven't slowed down religions here on Earth. I'm not sure why they'd be an issue on Eberron.
 

Zelda Themelin

First Post
Remote/absent/non-existent (take your pick) deities haven't slowed down religions here on Earth. I'm not sure why they'd be an issue on Eberron.


Because in fantasy land it matters. For me. Yes, it's DM:s choice in Eberron. But mythologies are big buy-in:s for me. Eberron is very here and there, oh dragons, yeh gods, some have real names, some are concept at least in names, yeh they are just philosophes people believe they are persons, but you as Dm can choose otherwise.

For those who don't get this, enjoy the universe. I build my universe from mythology to now, and I want to know how it happened. My games often come to relate to those matters at some point.

And even if not, when I dm in someone's elses universe, I want it to be cool from me, and first thing I read is mythology, gods and races. Not so evocative or cool for me or my gaming group there.


Ah, I like fantasy worlds like Glorantha, Scarred Lands and to lesser extent Oathbound and World of Greyhawk.

it's a simple a matter of preferance. Happy gaming in Eberron. Fine World, but not one for me.
 


Biggest inconsistence for me about Eberron is it's divane mythology. You know, one about vague existance/lack of real gods.

I am allergic to mythologies that don't believe in themselves. I don't play Eberron for this. I own all the books and use stuff for other campaings, though.

Eberron is often viewed as the anti-FR.

In Eberron, deities aren't characters. (Characters who are deities are effectively characters who are then worshipped. Erandis d'Vol is worshipped as a deity and even grants spells, but she's not actually a deity.)

This enables mysteries to remain. Yes, you can be a lawful good paladin of Vol, honestly believing the propaganda. PCs can't interact directly with the Silver Flame (except for being burnt to a crisp) and the only ones who can are a 16 year old nun and Cardinal Krozen/Richelieu. So instead, you interact with characters instead.

Contrast with FR, where characters are much like Greek deities, essentially being powerful people with massive flaws, directly interacting with the setting. It becomes a problem when there's so many of them, and some are good-aligned.
 

Klaus

First Post
Eberron is often viewed as the anti-FR.

In Eberron, deities aren't characters. (Characters who are deities are effectively characters who are then worshipped. Erandis d'Vol is worshipped as a deity and even grants spells, but she's not actually a deity.)

This enables mysteries to remain. Yes, you can be a lawful good paladin of Vol, honestly believing the propaganda. PCs can't interact directly with the Silver Flame (except for being burnt to a crisp) and the only ones who can are a 16 year old nun and Cardinal Krozen/Richelieu. So instead, you interact with characters instead.

Contrast with FR, where characters are much like Greek deities, essentially being powerful people with massive flaws, directly interacting with the setting. It becomes a problem when there's so many of them, and some are good-aligned.
And in Eberron, the deities don't reside in any of the known planes. Mortal souls go *somewhere* after their memories are purged by Doluhrr, and some theorize they move onto a higher plane of existence, where the deities dwell. Even epic immortal creatures, like angels, haven't been in the presence of the gods. Some *claim* to have spoken to the gods, but that's no different from a priest that says he heard Dol Arrah's voice in a crackling fire.

The most tangible divine forces in Eberron are the Undying Court and the Silver Flame. Their visibility makes it easier for them to have followers.
 

Zelda Themelin

First Post
Yes thanks for making those points. However Eberrons whole mythic things was more confusing when campaing only had that one book. Later it was clarified and you can get better picture of it. Of course there is also thing with dragons. As to anti FR, not reallly IMO. It's still fantasy world with pretty much everything, though I must say it does have stronger theme than FR, which for long time suffered about just "too much stuff into one world".

I don't like FR mythos either. For me it's still too much steals from Earth mythos with few uniques thrown in to make the whole thing even more bloated. I have lot of friends who like FR just for that reason.

Mmh, but I think we now have cleared this matter enough for OP poster to have some good answers by you guys if his players bring same thing up, I did.
 

Hellcow

Adventurer
This is what I get for staying off the boards for too long. I know the conversation is old, but to address a few points...

And why the heck are the Dragonmark houses the only ones with the monopolies? I mean, in theory anyone could be making money off magic item creation, or messages, or trains.
This relies on a few basic assumptions.

1. The granted ability of the dragonmarks - the Cannith power to perform repair light damage once per day - is a trivial part of the mark's true economic power. The more important piece is the ability to use dragonmark focus items, such as speaking stones, wheels of wind and water, creation forges, and the like. The fact that the gnome can cast Whispering Wind once per day is not important, but it lets him use a speaking stone.

2. Eberron is based on the idea that magic functions like science. By the RULES, a caster can create any spell or item (with DM approval). By the flavor of the world, creating a magic item that's never been created before is an act of innovation that requires genius. Why hasn't someone created a speaking stone that DOESN'T require the Mark of Scribing? Because no one's figured out how to do it. Amplifying the power of a dragonmark is simpler than creating a power from scratch.

3. Regarding the "They obviously have a 15th level caster, why not a 17th" - others have hit the mark on this. Eldritch machines break the rules. Cannith forgeholds have systems allowing multiple low-level marked individuals to combine power over time to accomplish things that would normally require a higher level caster.

4. In 4E, I change the way rituals and marks interact. I should post this properly on my website, but the short form is that I say that there are a number of critical rituals that can only be performed by people with the appropriate mark. Other rituals have been created in emulation of the marks; but some things simply don't exist in ritual book form.

5. ... Yet. As others have said, the point of Eberron is that Player Characters are exceptional. YOUR artificer can be Tesla or Edison. YOU may be the one who comes up with a Sending Stone anyone can use, an Airship anyone can fly, or a teleport ritual anyone can use. But that's because YOU ARE AWESOME. It's then up to the DM to decide what the houses will do, and up to you to figure out how to overcome those challenges. The houses are powerful and have stayed in power by crushing opposition. But YOU might be able to change that.

Why are gnomes in charge of messages, while elves are in charge of illusions/shadow?
Because gnomes have the Mark of Scribing and elves have the Mark of Shadow. If the question is "Why didn't gnomes get the Mark of Shadow?", it's because the dragonmarks aren't about reinforcing stereotypes from other settings; rather, the dragonmarks are their own separate thing that shape the cultures of this world.

With that said, the gnomish talent for illusion and prestidigitation plays a significant role in their culture, from the Zil Waterhouses to the subtle machinations of the Trust. It's just not their dragonmark, because the races didn't pick the marks.

Why are there evil clerics in good religions when there's a plethora of low-level detect alignment spells? (ooh, that's a good one) Especially since the Silver Flame is all about rooting out evil? What, they're unaware of the idea of alignment when they have spells for this stuff?

First, check out the Silver Flame dragonshards (the link goes to part one, but both are very relevant to this topic).

Others have hit the major points. A quick quote from the article itself:
The Church does not define evil as "that which can be detected with detect evil"; as noted earlier, someone with an evil alignment may serve the greater good. Furthermore, a cleric of a good deity always possesses a good aura, regardless of her personal alignment. Rank within the church hierarchy is another complication: a pilgrim can't kill a cardinal and expect to get away with it because "he was evil." She will need proof of actions that went against church doctrine and harmed the innocent. Thus, a paladin's ability to detect evil allows her to judge the character of those around her -- but it's in no way a license to kill.

I've highlighted a key phrase. In Eberron, alignment is less black and white. First you've got the fact that "evil" covers the beer-watering innkeeper and the murderer. Both are putting their own selfish desires ahead of the needs of others. Observation will tell you the difference; magic won't. Second you have the common example of evil peacemonger King Kaius and good warmonger Queen Aurala. How can Aurala be good and want war? In this case, alignment speaks to what they are willing to do to acheive their goals. Kaius' end goal is arguably a nobler goal - but he will do whatever it takes to acheive it. Murder, torture, massacres: he will do all of them, secure in the conviction that his actions serve the greater good. Aurala, on the other hand, believes that the land will prosper united under her rule - that people NEED her to take the throne. Obviously there will be death in war. But she would NEVER personally order torture, massacres, or similar evil acts.

Essentially, both Kaius and Aurala believe their goals are good. For Kaius, the ends justify the means, and his evil alignment tells you he will take evil acts to acheive his noble ends. For Aurala, the ends DON'T justify the means. She believes war is necessary, but she believes war CAN be just if fought with honor. Is this naive? Sure. But she's not on the battlefield - and she won't personally order or condone things she sees as evil.

Beyond this, paladins and spellcasting clerics are rare. Detect alignment is thus rare. The most common source of paladins is the church of the Silver Flame. And as noted in the Dragonshard, when it comes to human evil, the goal of the church is not to punish the evildoer but to redeem him. If the paladin recognizes someone as evil, the first question is what that means; the second is if he can be drawn back from this path. A paladin who recognizes an evil priest will undoubtedly be concerned; but again, what does it MEAN?

The example I always think of for the paladin is Yoda in The Empire Strikes Back, looking at Luke and saying "There is much anger in him." He sees the POTENTIAL to do terrible things. But is he doing them? Will he? Can he be turned back?

Beyond this, people brought up the example of good priests of "evil" religions. The power source of the Blood of Vol is evil, thus its clerics detect as evil regardless of alignment. However, the Blood of Vol places an emphasis on community and preserving life (death is the enemy of us all). The inner circle of the faith is evil, and THEY are the corrupt ones; most people who follow the tenets of the faith are unaligned/neutral or good. Again, when people speak of corrupt priests, Erandis Vol is in my mind the most dramatic example of this, because she has no devotion to the faith of her family. She is using the faith of others as a tool to achieve her purposes. By contrast, many evil priests of the Silver Flame firmly believe in the principles of the Flame, but have let zealotry blind them to the fact that the faith is built on charity and compassion - the zealous crusader who hunts down shifters in the name of the Silver Flame would be corrupt and evil, because that's not actually following the principles behind the faith.

So yes, I think the average village priest of Vol is neutral or good; and I've had an unaligned Paladin of Vol PC in one of my 4E campaigns.
 

Hellcow

Adventurer
Eberron is based on the idea that magic functions like science. By the RULES, a caster can create any spell or item (with DM approval). By the flavor of the world, creating a magic item that's never been created before is an act of innovation that requires genius. Why hasn't someone created a speaking stone that DOESN'T require the Mark of Scribing? Because no one's figured out how to do it. Amplifying the power of a dragonmark is simpler than creating a power from scratch.
A side note on this. Eberron is based on the idea that there is a place for everything in D&D - if you as DM decide to make use of that place. If a new book introduces a spell or item that makes everything fall apart, it's up to you to decide if that is available - and if it is, what you need to do to find it. For example, when new clerical spells are dropped in, you COULD just say "OK, all clerics can get this" - or you could say "The Shulassakar have ways of invoking the Silver Flame you've never seen. Perhaps, if you win their favor, they will teach you these secrets." The Eberron Expanded articles discuss this with various books. Essentially, I think it can be interesting to make spells - even clerical or primal spells that normally just come through prayer - a form of treasure that adventurers can acquire through their travels.

There are inconsistencies even within the Eberron books themselves, of course - there it's up to the DM to pick the path they prefer. For example, I prefer to limit resurrection and raise dead. As a result you will find material about how the Silver Flame thinks you're robbing strength from the Flame when you do it; how House Jorasco is loathe to casually raise the dead due to dangers of Maruts and Dolurrh rifts; and how Dolurrh itself saps memory and will, thus meaning that the victim very quickly loses the desire too leave (and thus can't be raised). The Keeper's Fang quality can be appleid to any weapon. On the other hand, the 3.5 ECS includes the Altar of Ressurection as a Jorasco dragonmark focus item. So, the altar exists; it's up to you as to whether you use it in your game.
 

Aaron

First Post
Thanks for your answers, Keith. They are really appreciated.

On a side note, I have finally started reading the City of Towers trilogy (I'm enjoying The Shattered Land at the moment).

Aside from the fact that I find the story intriguing, I would suggest the aforementioned novels to any Eberron lover because they magnificently depict the world and its inhabitants.

[sblock]The description of Dal Quor from the viewpoint of Kashtai is superb.[/sblock]
 
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