Eberron versus Multiverse

ChaosOS

Explorer
Here's the tl;dr for those not going through and following links

1. Around 800 YK (~200 years before the setting start), Lycanthropy switches to 3.0 rules where afflicted lycanthropes can spread the curse.
2. Situation gets much worse over 30 years, "28 days later" style where there's all sorts of lycanthropes threatening to spread out of the Towering Wood and take over all of Western Khorvaire. Keith likes to call out Wererats as an especially big problem here, as they work together to undermine cities and are generally much more intelligent threats.
3. CotSF (Church of the Silver Flame) says it's not worth trying to save the bitten, launches full crusade (... Not totally wrong when most templars aren't of high enough level to cast Remove Curse). Shifters get caught in crossfire by people who don't know the difference/accuse the shifters (...correctly) that shifter communities are harboring lycanthropes.
4. Lengthy war (50 years) of indeterminate details. At some point the setting updates to 3.5 and afflicted can no longer spread the curse.
5. Zealous people, looking for revenge, slaughter as many lycanthropes (and shifters) as they can.
6. Twelve years after the purge officially ends, the Last War starts.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
The problem is the polytheistic extremism and religious supremacism that infects Forgotten Realms, even to the point of the ethically disgusting religious terrorism of the Wall of the Faithless.
Mod Note:

Folks,

I hope you all realize that rhetoric like this crosses our "no politics, no religion" line, and that you should not respond to it.
 

MonsterEnvy

Adventurer
Problem being is that those places are tied to massive amounts of their own lore & some parts of them have similar metaphorical analogs that are just too different to be the same. The Mojave desert has enough similarities to mars that it makes for a good place for nasa to test mars bound designs, but you'd be laughed out of the room if you suggested that nasa just do their research in the mojave desert & save the trip since it's just like mars. There are too many differences between mars & the mojave desert to be more than a useful test bed to work out some kinks with just as khyber is too different from those things to be a "mix" any more than blueberries are a mix of raspberries cranberries & plumbs because they all grow on a plant & contain juice with fructose & cells with dna
I am talking about the Mythological Hell like from Dante's Inferno. And it is a mix of those things and is described as being the Underdark with Hellish and Abyssal extra bits.

Just because you don't like it being compared to the the Underdark and Abyss does not mean the comparison is not there. Given that it is literally called Eberron's Underdark, but with ways to horrible Demiplanes that resemble Abyssal Layers, and serving as the prison of powerful fiends. (Like Dante's Hell.)
 

Hellcow

Adventurer
Oh, you mean like how the Church of the Silver Flame in Eberron went on a genocidal rampage against Shifters and Lycanthropes throughout the continent of Khorvaire?

Oh, you done had to drag the Silver Flame into this...

The Silver Flame is often misunderstood, and often misrepresented by authors within canon sources. it is not supposed to mirror any religion in our world, because Eberron ISN'T our world. Eberron is a world where we know as fact that there are shapeshifting fiends manipulating humanity, that vampires thirst for mortal blood, that there are hordes of aberrations just below our feet, waiting to burst out of Khyber and slaughter the innocent. The purpose of the Silver Flame is, first and foremost, to protect the innocent from supernatural evil. The Silver Flame isn't a "god" in the traditional sense; it's a pool of celestial power that only affects the world by empowering those who seek to protect the innocent.

The Lycanthropic Purge was based on the 3.0 rules for lycanthropy; what later canon has established, as shown in the timeline posted earlier in the thread, is that these rules were in effect at that time. Under those rules, an afflicted lycanthrope could spread the affliction, which creates the possibility of an exponential infection: one werewolf bites two people, they each bite two people, they each bite two people, and before you know it the Five Nations is overrun. It also emphasized that not only did the curse — and it was called out as a curse — force an alignment change, but that it was an EXTREME alignment shift. Evil lycanthropes are driven to murder and to prey on the innocent, even preying on their former friends and family. And that includes shifter lycanthropes. The shifters feared evil lycanthropes as much as anyone, and in fact understood the threat better than any templar. Shifters and templars should have been allies; but cunning wererats spread the rumors that all shifters were lycanthropes or at least sympathetic to them, staging attacks on templars to drive this home (as some shifters WERE lycanthropes, after all!). And even good-aligned lycanthropes were called out as being driven to abandon civilization for the wilds. If contracting lycanthropy simply meant gaining a bunch of superpowers, everyone would WANT it. The conclusion of the Keeper was that the curse, in forcing its alignment shift, "corrupted the soul itself."

So the point is this: when the Silver Crusade was declared, lycanthropy was a real, potentially existential threat to the Five Nations. The Crusade lasted for decades, because initially the odds favored the 'thropes. Bear in mind that the typical templar was a 1st or 2nd level warrior. Take a commoner or warrior and add a 3.0 lycanthrope template. Set aside that a single 'thrope is more than a match for a few templars, one good bite is all it takes to spread the infection. It's not that the church had no sympathy for the infected, but rather that they lacked the RESOURCES to make curing all infected a real possibility; and again, at the start this was a desperate, bloody struggle, not one where the templars could AFFORD to try to take their enemies alive.

Eventually the tide turned, and ultimately the power of the curse was broken. Afflicted 'thropes could no longer spread the affliction themselves. But by this time, the people of western Aundair had lived through decades of terror, and hatred and a thirst for revenge brought out the worst in them. This was the origin of the Pure Flame, and it was these zealots who carried out the brutal persecution over the final decade. This was a time of paranoia and cruelty. But again: the Crusade began as an act of selfless heroism, with templars throwing themselves against a deadly foe to protect people who didn't even share their beliefs. Through their actions they saved the people of Aundair, and possibly the entire Five Nations. The Crusade ENDED in a decade of cruelty and persecution in which many innocents died, an inquisition fueled by the worst elements of humanity. But if not for the templars, Galifar might have fallen to primal savagery. Now, it's also true that the Keeper recognized it as an opportunity to spread the faith, and it was. But this didn't change the fact that the templars who put their lives on the line were doing it to help innocents... or the fact that the converts that Keeper Sol won for the faith became the nucleus of a vicious extremist sect that casts a shadow on the church to this day.

The whole point of Eberron is that there aren't always easy answers, and that stories don't always end well. The Silver Crusade embodies this idea. It began as a truly noble quest; it ended in cruelty and innocent deaths. It's not supposed to be entirely good or entirely evil; it's imperfect.
 
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Ashrym

Hero
To be honest, this thread has done more to make me wanna read ERftLF than several others. I didn't realize just how deep and subtly nuanced Eberron's Religions were. Very interesting.
I bought the Eberron setting in 3e to ready while waiting for my DDO preorder (that arrived well after launch ugh) for background info on the MMO my friends and I were going to play. I was hooked right off the bat. The setting is was unique and I like industrial revolution magic style, forget what you know about alignment, black and white goes beyond gray (possibly chartreuse), and the spin on religions.

It's been a favorite setting since. If you aren't familiar then you're missing out. ;)
 

dave2008

Legend
Yes, an ‘invoked one’ sounds like a ‘god’ to you. That is because Western Culture has been brainwashed by Hellenism, and is culturally ethnocentric, assuming that every culture views the world in the same way that Continental Europe does. It goes back to Romans and Greeks identifying ALL other religions to be as if specific Roman and Greek gods.
Yaarel you are going to far. You do not get to define what a 'god' is. Just like you want religion to be ambiguous in D&D the term 'god' is ambiguous. To some, nature spirits are gods, to others they are not. That is OK. The norse and greek nature spirits are gods to some and not to others - that is OK. Stop trying to inflict your reductive views on everyone and embrace the wonderful color of the people of the world. If I call Thor a god and you say he is not, it doesn't change what it is. We are just using different terms for the same thing, and that is OK.

Would it help if we called all of the FR gods 'nature spirits' instead?
 

Sadras

Adventurer
I read the first page of the thread and then read Umbran's mod note on the last page. :rolleyes:

@Yaarel, WotC meta-setting attempts to incorporate all settings for people who want to tour-de-multiverse.
You do know the DMG is filled with DIY your setting, right?

Myself, I'm a Mystara-man and as you know Mystara lore and Realmspace just do not co-exist. However I wanted to incorporate some of the other settings in a way that made sense to me and so reading the lore from both FR/Multiverse and Mystara - I introduced the idea that the Old Ones were not singular in mind and argued with one another which led to the creation of many multiverse, whose collective noun is an omniverse. This idea was given to me by the wiki entry on Ao who has cryptically answered to a higher power referred to only as the Luminous Being (perhaps a loner Old One).
The only way any two multiverses connect is through the Bleed (the Astral Plane between two multiverses).

My point is make the setting your own which ever setting it is and worry less about published meta-settings. I guarantee you the WotC creators run things very differently in their home games.
 
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tetrasodium

Explorer
I am talking about the Mythological Hell like from Dante's Inferno. And it is a mix of those things and is described as being the Underdark with Hellish and Abyssal extra bits.

Just because you don't like it being compared to the the Underdark and Abyss does not mean the comparison is not there. Given that it is literally called Eberron's Underdark, but with ways to horrible Demiplanes that resemble Abyssal Layers, and serving as the prison of powerful fiends. (Like Dante's Hell.)
The problem comes in that there is too much violently incompatible lore baked into those things from the default/FR setting & that lore is very often written in a way that suggests it is always applicable. Even when keith baker said "Likewise, the fact that this means that Cyric and Bane exist somewhere in the universe is utterly meaningless in Eberron. " still asked about overdeities because those are important to some other setting's lore & their supporting baggage. It's not the comparison, it's the fact that those setting specific things can't be cleanly separated from the incompatible supporting lore of other settings.

edit: Barney & godzilla are both a guy in a dinosaur suit, but it's wildly misleading to suggest that godzilla is tokyo's Barney just because godzilla was once given the friend to children everywhere moniker.
 
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Beleriphon

Totally Awesome Pirate Brain
. This idea was given to me by the wiki entry on Ao who has cryptically answered to a higher power referred to only as the Luminous Being (perhaps a loner Old One).
The only way any two multiverses connect is through the Bleed (the Astral Plane between two multiverses).
That's a good idea. That said, my understanding AO and the Luminous Being is self referential gag that supports AO knows he's running a TTRPG setting through the DM, much the same way Deadpool knows he lives in a comic book.
 

MonsterEnvy

Adventurer
The problem comes in that there is too much violently incompatible lore baked into those things from the default/FR setting & that lore is very often written in a way that suggests it is always applicable. Even when keith baker said "Likewise, the fact that this means that Cyric and Bane exist somewhere in the universe is utterly meaningless in Eberron. " still asked about overdeities because those are important to some other setting's lore & their supporting baggage. It's not the comparison, it's the fact that those setting specific things can't be cleanly separated from the incompatible supporting lore of other settings.

edit: Barney & godzilla are both a guy in a dinosaur suit, but it's wildly misleading to suggest that godzilla is tokyo's Barney just because godzilla was once given the friend to children everywhere moniker.
The Underdark and Abyssal Layers are not setting specific, as they are in multiple D&D settings. They are normally a generic D&D thing, and with some influence from other sources have been combined into Khyber.

To use your Dinosaur Suit analogy. It's more the difference between Godzilla and Gamera, than Godzilla and Barney.
 

tetrasodium

Explorer
The Underdark and Abyssal Layers are not setting specific, as they are in multiple D&D settings. They are normally a generic D&D thing, and with some influence from other sources have been combined into Khyber.

To use your Dinosaur Suit analogy. It's more the difference between Godzilla and Gamera, than Godzilla and Barney.
No, Those things in Forgotten realms & Greyhawk* are virtually the same thing with the serial numbers filed off. Khyber is not those things just as Darksun's blackspine filled with Gith is not the underdark either. The conceit that just because the default setting of forgotten realms has something with extremely tenuous similarity to something in other settings if you squint needs to rot in the bin beside midichlorians & baator. Are you seriously broken up that severing the name "underdark" from Khyber &Blackspine to prevent confusion of (often new)players who think they know underdark causing their GM to constantly correct expectations... or are you just arguing because it will make it harder for you to play your drow "drizzot" in eberron or darksun where he absolutely does not belong?

* I don't know what it is in mystara... If it's the same with serial numbers filed off, then alll the more reason the actually different versions not be called the underdark. If it's different then that's more evidence for why it should have had a different name not so ladden with lore from another setting
 

MonsterEnvy

Adventurer
No, Those things in Forgotten realms & Greyhawk* are virtually the same thing with the serial numbers filed off. Khyber is not those things just as Darksun's blackspine filled with Gith is not the underdark either. The conceit that just because the default setting of forgotten realms has something with extremely tenuous similarity to something in other settings if you squint needs to rot in the bin beside midichlorians & baator. Are you seriously broken up that severing the name "underdark" from Khyber &Blackspine to prevent confusion of (often new)players who think they know underdark causing their GM to constantly correct expectations... or are you just arguing because it will make it harder for you to play your drow "drizzot" in eberron or darksun where he absolutely does not belong?

* I don't know what it is in mystara... If it's the same with serial numbers filed off, then alll the more reason the actually different versions not be called the underdark. If it's different then that's more evidence for why it should have had a different name not so ladden with lore from another setting
You got pretty insulting here. You are the one who seems broken up that there is even comparison.

Not that it changes what the books say.

Rising from the Last War said:
And Khyber is the Underdark and the source of aberrations and fiends, forever struggling against her bonds and yearning to destroy the world above.
4e Setting Guide said:
Khyber the Dragon Below embodies the Underdark,an endless labyrinth spreading below the world.
3e Setting guide the first book about Eberron said:
Khyber, the Dragon Below, comprises the underdark of the world, the labyrinthine caverns that snake beneath the surface and fill the depths of the planet.
 

ChaosOS

Explorer
The big points on Khyber v Underdark is quite honestly the lack of Drow in Khyber. On one hand that's only a single race, on the other hand my impression of the Underdark is 95% of adventures revolve around the Drow, so...

With regards to the "second layer of reality" I think Khyber is more inclined to get freaky than the Underdark, but the Underdark is still plenty happy to get weird.
 

tetrasodium

Explorer
You got pretty insulting here. You are the one who seems broken up that there is even comparison.

Not that it changes what the books say.
Remember that this absurd tangent began because you took offense to my pointing out in part of a post responding to a question on if the progenitor dragons (one wasnamed Khyber) was explicitly an OverDeity. that khyber was "very much not the nine hells or underdark".

Congratulations, your very own attempt to justify how similar the barely similar things are demonstrates the exact kind of strife the name causes at the table... That comes right down to claiming "insult" over having drizzt clones invading settings they don;t belong in getting mocked. Thank you for proving my point so perfectly.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Remember that this absurd tangent began ...
Mod Note:

Where it began is not relevant. No matter how it began, we ask you to be respectful of others. If you aren't up to that, I strongly suggest you take some time away from the thread.
 

MonsterEnvy

Adventurer
The big points on Khyber v Underdark is quite honestly the lack of Drow in Khyber. On one hand that's only a single race, on the other hand my impression of the Underdark is 95% of adventures revolve around the Drow, so...

With regards to the "second layer of reality" I think Khyber is more inclined to get freaky than the Underdark, but the Underdark is still plenty happy to get weird.
There is quite a bit of stuff in the Underdark that does not involve Drow. Kuo-Toa, Beholder, Mind Flayers, those are all creatures that primarily hang in the Underdark.

Also a subset of Drow do hang out in Khyber.

"Finally, the Umbragen are descended from drow who fled into the depths of the earth when the giant civilization fell. They wield sophisticated magic in their unceasing battles against the daelkyr and the other aberrations of the underworld."
And I agree that Khyber is more inclined to get freaky than the Underdark. As it's also the equivalent of the Abyss and Hell.


Remember that this absurd tangent began because you took offense to my pointing out in part of a post responding to a question on if the progenitor dragons (one wasnamed Khyber) was explicitly an OverDeity. that khyber was "very much not the nine hells or underdark".

Congratulations, your very own attempt to justify how similar the barely similar things are demonstrates the exact kind of strife the name causes at the table... That comes right down to claiming "insult" over having drizzt clones invading settings they don;t belong in getting mocked. Thank you for proving my point so perfectly.
That was not me taking offense, that was me elaborating that Khyber was like the Hells and Underdark put together.

Also they are not barely similar, they are very similar. Down to the books saying so.
I did not prove your point at all. I don't care about the Drow being in the Underdark in Eberron. Even if there was none down there, I would still say it's like the Underdark.
 

Azzy

Cyclone Ranger
edit: Barney & godzilla are both a guy in a dinosaur suit, but it's wildly misleading to suggest that godzilla is tokyo's Barney just because godzilla was once given the friend to children everywhere moniker.
There's a lot here to unpack... The idea that Godzilla is Japan's Barney is so entertaining that it is a must to meditate upon. On the flipside, OTOH, that Barney is America's Godzilla is enough to make Baby Jesus™ cry.

And, no, it was Gamera that was a friend to children everywhere (IIRC).

I do love me some kaiju.
 

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