D&D 5E Eberron versus Multiverse

[Hriston]

The concepts of gods exists, but their existence is left an open-ended question, particularly with regards to the Sovereigns and Six, the most commonly worshiped pantheon in Eberron. The following excerpt from this blog post Keith wrote, while not technically "canon" in the strictest sense, explains the mentality and concepts that most people on Eberron hold towards the gods: Dark Six: Myths and The Fury

There are many myths of the Sovereigns and Six. Dol Arrah battling Death itself. The Mockery’s betrayal of his siblings Dol Arrah and Dol Dorn, only to be stripped of name and skin by his brother. The Keeper bargaining with Death to gain the power to steal souls. The birth of the Fury, Aureon unleashing the Shadow. We’ve only mentioned a few of these myths in canon sources, but there are hundreds within the world. Often these explain natural phenomena; the massive volcano in the Mror Holds is called the Fist of Onatar, because it’s said that Onatar smashed the mountain to create his first forge.

How can this be? Deities don’t physically manifest in Eberron. The Devourer is the storm and the raging sea, not an angry giant who’s going to personally knock your house down. The answer is that the myths are tales of their deeds before they became the Sovereigns. Reality was created by the struggle between the Progenitors. Khyber’s children rose from the darkness and seized control of the world. A band of heroes rose in this time to battle the fiends and establish the foundation for civilization. The myths are the stories of these champions… heroic deeds, vile betrayals, and more. Ultimately these champions defeated the Overlords. This left the world in need of guiding hands: and so these first heroes and villains ascended to become the Sovereigns and Six, merging with reality and rising to a higher form of existence. So there are many tales of Dol Arrah’s heroism, but no one expects her to physically manifest today; vassals know that she is ALWAYS with them, guiding the hand of every virtuous warrior.

There’s no canon list of these myths, in part because there are many different interpretations across different cultures. The common vassal traditions of the Five Nations are based on the Pyrinean Creed, developed in Sarlona before Lhazaar’s journey. But the Talentans say Bally-Nur was a clever halfling hunter, and if you go to Khazaak Draal you’ll hear stories about the Shadow never told in a human temple. The Church of the Wyrm Ascendant is a sect in the Five Nations that claims that the Sovereigns were dragons, and that the myths are based on the actual deeds of draconic champions and villains in the Age of Demons. However, this isn’t a universally accepted belief. Most myths are vague about the nature of the Sovereigns, and it’s common for them to be depicted as members of the dominant culture sharing the story. Pyrinean temples occasionally depict the Sovereigns as dragons, but this is considered to be metaphor, not literal portraits.

The point is that while the Sovereigns and Six don’t manifest in the world and can’t be proven to exist, you CAN have artifacts, locations, or deeds that are attributed to them. You can visit the Lair of the Keeper, or find Dol Arrah’s Sunblade or a cloak said to be made from the flayed skin of the Mockery. That doesn’t mean these things are actually what people say they are—but the idea of finding Dol Arrah’s sword isn’t at odds with her never manifesting today, because this was her sword before her ascension.

Of course, this doesn't apply to those who follow the Undying Court or the Cults of the Dragon Below, whose patrons can be shown to exist -- you can go into Aerenal and speak with the Undying Court, or descend into Khyber to confront the daelkyr (though you would have to be very brave and/or stupid to do so). This also doesn't apply to the Blood of Vol, the Path of Light, and the Druidic traditions of Eberron. The Blood of Vol puts no faith in the gods, and those Seekers that do believe that they exist denounce them as cruel tyrants. The Path of Light is primarily a philosophy rather than a religion; the kalashtar do "worship" il-Yannah, but as a force of compassion and courage, not as a concrete deity. And the Druids of Eberron believe they draw power from the world itself.

Thanks for your informative post! Do you see how this wonderful ambiguity is undermined by a setting book that says essentially that there are real gods, but just that they can’t interfere with Eberron?

 

[dave2008]

Outside of not using a sidebar, this is exactly what they did do though.

While I agree in effect, for me, that is what they did. In reality the tone is different. The did explicitly state that Eberron is part of the Great Wheel. That is different from stating it could be part of the Great Wheel. That is what has people ruffled up. It is not much, it doesn't bother me, but it clearly bothers others and I think that could have been avoided if they had said "could be" instead of "is."

Planes of Existence (from Rise form the Last War:

Spoiler

 

[Parmandur]

While I agree in effect, for me, that is what they did. In reality the tone is different. The did explicitly state that Eberron is part of the Great Wheel. That is different from stating it could be part of the Great Wheel. That is what has people ruffled up. It is not much, it doesn't bother me, but it clearly bothers others and I think that could have been avoided if they had said "could be" instead of "is."

Planes of Existence (from Rise form the Last War:

Spoiler

View attachment 116079

The default is it being part of the Great Wheel for branding purposes. They aren't going to put out products they can't link together. In Acquisitions Incorporated they went from FR to Ravnica recently, for instance.

 

[Salthorae]

Spoiler

View attachment 116079

I'll leave this in spoilers I guess? And extract the relevant portions that people seem to be ignoring

At the same time, it is fundamentally apart from the rest of the Great Wheel, sealed off from the other planes even while it's encircled by its own wheeling cosmology... it is sheltered from the influences and machinations of gods and other powers

So literally nothing has changed in the setting.

 

[Parmandur]

Like the fact that you can no longer have a non-caster with Greater Dragonmark abilities despite Lore and Fiction to the contrary in the past.

Well, one of the benefits of the lack of metaplot for WotC is, they can contradict older stories and lore and handwave it as alternative universe. There is no overriding story that will be disrupted by retcons.

 

[dave2008]

Like the fact that you can no longer have a non-caster with Greater Dragonmark abilities despite Lore and Fiction to the contrary in the past.

Keith discussed that in one of his blogs or pods or something. The argument was, if I remember correctly, something to do with the difference in feats between 3e and 5e. He is fine with though. I'm sure if you did a bit of looking you can find it.

 

[dave2008]

So literally nothing has changed in the setting.

Again, I agree with you in principle. I have no issue with it, your preaching to the choir. But I am able to understand why some people are upset with the shift in tone. I am not asking you to convince me, I'm on your side. I just think the wiser approach is to also be able see it from another's perspective and think: what could we do to satisfy both?! I think the solution was easy, they just missed it.

Question: Do you honestly believe there is no difference between stating something is a part of something else vs. something could be a part of something else if you want it to be?

 

[Umbran]

Do you see how this wonderful ambiguity is undermined by a setting book that says essentially that there are real gods, but just that they can’t interfere with Eberron?

Nope, I don't see how it is undermined.

Because, there are clerics in Eberron. They get spells, and we still don't know how or why! We know, in canon, that those spells do not come from the gods of the rest of the multiverse.

So, this is just as weird and ambiguous as it was before.

Over in my neighbor's house, they thought it was haunted. Then, they found out that the weird sounds they'd been hearing, and the chills they'd felt were really because their forced-air HVAC system had some issues - they called a repairman, and the "haunting" went away.

Over in my house, I have weird sounds and chills... but we don't have forced air heating!.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Well, one of the benefits of the lack of metaplot for WotC is, they can contradict older stories and lore and handwave it as alternative universe. There is no overriding story that will be disrupted by retcons.

Something that's bugging me, and I don't mean it as (purely) a personal attack, but:

A lot of your posts are kind of stating the obvious, what we all know whether implicitly or explicitly.

For a lot of us when it comes to varying issues, our problem with what is and isn't isn't "what" but "why" and "should it be so". So when you come out and reiterate what is plain to see, it sounds like you're implicitly defending the status quo and giving WotC carte blanche to do whatever with no room for criticism. Is that your intent?

 

[Gradine]