Eberron versus Multiverse

gyor

Legend
Man you are coming across as super whiny.

Khyber still is Eberron's version of the Underdark and Abyss.

Eberron's Dragons are indeed elevated above the other settings dragons. Partially because their empire is still intact. FR's Dragons are much more solitary and their powerful empire collapsed as a result of their 1000 year war with the giants.

I do agree as well that Elminster in Hell does not sound like a good book.
Some of the Dragons empires Collapsed, some Dragon Empires survive on Returned Abeir and Abeir and on parts of Coliar. And their Dragons ruling city states on Faerun. Still none of these compare to Eberrons Dragon Empire for power or depth of knowledge.

Still the Elven Empires in FR aren't to be brushed off, they were scary mother******s, their high magic literal broken the planet and changed fate enough to keep causing it to break retroactively. If the Elves of Faerun had not self destructed by genocidal wars with each other, they would be able to destroy Eberrons Dragon Empire (and Eberron and themselves and Faerun in the process, FR Elves are crazy). In most setting Elves look at Tieflings are a disguisted by what humans will do, in FR Elves are like humans hold my beer ( Tieflings meet the Fey'ri). It's what makes FR elves the most fun Elves in all of Fantasy.
 

MonsterEnvy

Adventurer
It's a little more complicated then that, he gets tortured and tormented too often to be a Gary Stu, and he does occasional lose fights. It's more that he is the favoured servant of one of the most powerful Gods in D&D, and a battery for Mystra's power.

So the Sorcerer King would probably win at first, before he either ODs on Elminster life force (El is kind like Gandoff in that he is more Angel like being then man at this point, having a body is a luxury for Elmimister), or Mystra comes and trashes Athas till the SK hands Elminster back. It's mostly borrowed power, without that Elminister is just a regular Archmage.

So I don't think that counts as a Gary Stu or Mary Stu (Elminister has had female bodies before), more knowing the right folks.
I don't think Mystra can do that. As the Gods can't go to Athas, and Mystra (Well the one that saved him) is dead.
 

Bohandas

Explorer
The goal is to clarify precisely what the official view is, with regard to whether or not Eberron connects to the same Multiverse that Forgotten Realms is part of.
I don't think they connect. Eberron was never part of Planescape/Spelljammer amd they had totally different cosmologies in 3e when Eberron was introduced
 

Coroc

Adventurer
Mystra doesn't just have Elminster and the other Chosen of Mystra back, she invests a portion of her own divine power in them, they are functionally independant extensions of her own divinity in them, Avatars in a more traditional sense of the term.

And when Elminister ended up in Hell, trapped, Mystra walked in, butchered the Devils by the thousands and pimp slapped Asmodeus so hard he forgot Elminister was ever there.

If a Sorcerer King drained Elminster's life force, he'd blow up like a fat kid in Willy Wonk's factory, because he'd containing part of the life force of a Goddess.

See Mystra has so much juice she has to dump part of her essence/power in mortals, she traditionally is the most powerful of FRs Gods, to the point where she can cut off even Gods from Magic, so it's almost too much juice for her to contain with out having a spellplague like disaster every Tuesday, so she stores some of it in Volo, some in Elminister, some in crazy Manshoon, some in Larloch, some in the Seven Sisters, ect..., so a Sorcerer King trying to tap into lifeforce/magic is a like three year old sticking a fork into an electrical socket.

Mystra's still waking up to her full power after being dead, a death that wreck an entire star system so hard that an Overgod had to fix it, but one she does, a treaty with the Promordials of Athas, most of whom are gone anyways, won't stop her from coming to Athas and causing mayham till Elminister is returned to her. Mystra doesn't like having her toys stolen, she tends break thing, like worlds, planes of existance when that happens.
well as I see it Elminster would not even get a connection to Mystra so in fact she would not even know he is in Athas.
At least that's the way it is handled for clerics from other settings getting intoDS
 

Coroc

Adventurer
Some of the Dragons empires Collapsed, some Dragon Empires survive on Returned Abeir and Abeir and on parts of Coliar. And their Dragons ruling city states on Faerun. Still none of these compare to Eberrons Dragon Empire for power or depth of knowledge.

Still the Elven Empires in FR aren't to be brushed off, they were scary mother******s, their high magic literal broken the planet and changed fate enough to keep causing it to break retroactively. If the Elves of Faerun had not self destructed by genocidal wars with each other, they would be able to destroy Eberrons Dragon Empire (and Eberron and themselves and Faerun in the process, FR Elves are crazy). In most setting Elves look at Tieflings are a disguisted by what humans will do, in FR Elves are like humans hold my beer ( Tieflings meet the Fey'ri). It's what makes FR elves the most fun Elves in all of Fantasy.
Mythals anybody? 😁
 

MonsterEnvy

Adventurer
Another correction I just took a look at what happened in Elminster in Hell and Mystra failed to save him. After going to hell, and defeating a bunch of devils she found herself too conspicuous, as other powerful entities were noticing her, and she was losing power. So she retreated. She send other chosen to rescue Elminster instead. One failed the other saved him.

Edit: Appearntly at the time of the books as well. Villains were not allowed to even have minor victories due to Moral Guardians being a fairly big deal at the time.

I remember one of the first things Greenwood did around the time 5e was depower Elminster and the other chosen. Who are stated as being much weaker than they used to be.
 
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FaerieGodfather

Born in the Soul of Misery
I don't think they connect. Eberron was never part of Planescape/Spelljammer amd they had totally different cosmologies in 3e when Eberron was introduced
The same could be said of Dragonlance, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms before Spelljammer and Planescape retconned them all into Greyhawk's Great Wheel cosmology.
 

PsyzhranV2

Adventurer
I don't think they connect. Eberron was never part of Planescape/Spelljammer amd they had totally different cosmologies in 3e when Eberron was introduced
The same could be said of Dragonlance, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms before Spelljammer and Planescape retconned them all into Greyhawk's Great Wheel cosmology.
I mean, it's close, but not quite...?
A few thoughts on all of this...

Eberron has always been tied to the multiverse. Page 92 of the original Eberron Campaign Setting says "Eberron spins within its own Material Plane, enfolded by three coexistent transitive planes: the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow, just as in the core D&D cosmology (see Chapter 5 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide)." WotC stated long ago that it was officially possible for people to travel to Eberron from other settings by using those transitive planes. You may not have noticed, because it's the default assumption of the setting that no one ever does... just as page 232 of Rising From The Last War establishes that the default assumption of the book is that "contact between the worlds and planes beyond its cosmology is impossible."

The idea is there that it COULD be possible, but it has absolutely ALWAYS been there: from the very beginning, Eberron had its own unique cosmology, but that entire cosmology was still part of the broader system of astral/ethereal/shadow. This simply calls that out more clearly, in part because it allows us to clearly say "This book is based on the assumption that contact with other settings is impossible." Again, the NEW aspect of this is to clarify that if you want it to be an aspect of your campaign, you're changing the default assumptions.

Likewise, the fact that this means that Cyric and Bane exist somewhere in the universe is utterly meaningless in Eberron. This doesn't mean that "Gods definitively exist", because as others have pointed out, the people of Eberron wouldn't identify the "gods" of FR as gods. The Vassals of the Sovereign Host believe that their deities are omniscient and omnipresent. The idea of one of them taking a physical form is pointlessly limiting; that's not a GOD, it's a powerful angel or an overlord. They would view the worship of such beings as a Cult of the Dragon Below; note that the Cults do worship coherent entities such as the overlords and daelkyr. And that's the point: the overlords have always been presented as beings that have the POWER of gods in other settings, but the answer of the masses wasn't to worship them, it was to bind them in spiritual chains. So yes, Rising acknowledges that the multiverse exists (as Eberron always has) and that therefore the gods of other settings exists; this doesn't change the critical facts:
  • Those beings have no ability to influence Eberron unless you, the DM, choose to change that.
  • As the default assumption is that they cannot and have never influenced the setting, they are absolutely and entirely unknown to the people of the setting.
  • Those beings don't qualify as "gods" by the definitions used in Eberron, and the gods worshipped on Eberron do not follow their model. Eberron has always had beings that use the same rules as gods of other settings: those beings are the overlords, and rather than being worshipped, they were imprisoned.
Rising presents a clearer explanation of the principle presented on page 92 of the first Eberron book: Eberron COULD be connected to other settings if you want it to be, but the default assumption is that it's not. Beyond this, one of the core principles of Eberron is that canon is merely a starting point and that YOU decide what's true in your campaign. Ultimately, each DM decides if the Sovereigns are real, and each DM decides if Eberron is connected to the multiverse.

A few other minor points while I'm here...
  • The default assumption of Eberron is that spells such as commune don't reach the Sovereigns directly, but rather connect you to a celestial that also believes in the Sovereigns. By default - and again, it's up to the DM to decide the truth - there's no absolute proof for or against the existence of the Sovereigns.
  • The statement on Page 228 that "Some sages believe the moons are connected to the planes or are physical extensions of the planes" is 100% talking about the planes of Eberron. The sages have no concept whatsoever that there might be other planes, because the default assumption of the book is that contact with worlds and planes beyond its cosmology is impossible. The idea that the moons are tied to the planes of Eberron isn't new. There are (or were) thirteen moons and thirteen planes, and the giants specifically destroyed the thirteenth moon to sever ties with Dal Quor.
The only thing that I feel IS overstated is the statement that the Progenitors DID create the creatures of Eberron being presented as absolute fact. The rest of the book presents the idea that the Progenitors may have been metaphorical, and that is still the default assumption. The primary point of the section was to concretely say that despite default 5E stating "All orcs are tied to Gruumsh" and "All Elves are children of Corellon" that this does NOT apply to Eberron—that the elves and orcs of Eberron are part of EBERRON and have no ties to the multiverse beyond it. As others have called out, Rising does point out that the drow of Eberron were created by the GIANTS, not by Lolth OR the Progenitors. As with the Sovereigns, it's up to the DM to decide if the Progenitors truly existed, and if so, what they actually were. What's important is—just as has always been the case—Eberron is a part of the multiverse, but it is an isolated part that has its own cosmology and that has no contact with the rest of the Multiverse unless you, the DM, choose to change that.

(Oh, and since it's been a while since I've been here— Hi! I'm Keith Baker, creator of Eberron.)
 

QuentinGeorge

Adventurer
I don't particularly care if FR was first or best. FR is not even my favorite setting. I did not even say that it was first just one of the first.

I did not even know about this fact about dragons until this week. When reading through a review of some original dragonlance products. Which brought up that Dragonlance dragons were not particularly special and for sure not more powerful then the baseline ones. FR introduced many new mechanics and buffs to dragons to power them up, including stuff like being immune to the damage of their breath weapons. Stuff that later became baseline in 2e and on.
Dragonlance had probably the largest and most powerful dragons. Malystryx and the other dragon overlords were two actual size categories bigger than great wyrm. (400' feet long and 500' wingspan - far larger than any other red dragon). And you severely mischaracterise how the dragon/dragonrider partnership went. It wasn't just riders atop a dumb mount like a horse, the dragon was a full partner, and in many cases, senior partner. Flint Fireforge and Tasslehoff Burrfoot rode a dragon with a lance and they basically sat there while the dragon did everything! On Krynn the dragons are the first and most perfect creations of the gods, made in their image. Hardly not "special" - the whole setting revolves around them! In any of the big "wars" on Krynn, the first thing one side does is attempt to knock the other side's dragons out of the war.
 

MonsterEnvy

Adventurer
Dragonlance had probably the largest and most powerful dragons. Malystryx and the other dragon overlords were two actual size categories bigger than great wyrm. (400' feet long and 500' wingspan - far larger than any other red dragon). And you severely mischaracterise how the dragon/dragonrider partnership went. It wasn't just riders atop a dumb mount like a horse, the dragon was a full partner, and in many cases, senior partner. Flint Fireforge and Tasslehoff Burrfoot rode a dragon with a lance and they basically sat there while the dragon did everything! On Krynn the dragons are the first and most perfect creations of the gods, made in their image. Hardly not "special" - the whole setting revolves around them! In any of the big "wars" on Krynn, the first thing one side does is attempt to knock the other side's dragons out of the war.
It may have changed later on. But early on this was not the case.
 

Coroc

Adventurer
Dragonlance had probably the largest and most powerful dragons. Malystryx and the other dragon overlords were two actual size categories bigger than great wyrm. (400' feet long and 500' wingspan - far larger than any other red dragon). And you severely mischaracterise how the dragon/dragonrider partnership went. It wasn't just riders atop a dumb mount like a horse, the dragon was a full partner, and in many cases, senior partner. Flint Fireforge and Tasslehoff Burrfoot rode a dragon with a lance and they basically sat there while the dragon did everything! On Krynn the dragons are the first and most perfect creations of the gods, made in their image. Hardly not "special" - the whole setting revolves around them! In any of the big "wars" on Krynn, the first thing one side does is attempt to knock the other side's dragons out of the war.
There is also Council of wyrms setting which offered a different approach for a man / dragon "Symbiosis"

Biggest dragon in Lore afaik is the god Io the platinum dragon with I think 800 yards in length and span, I might be wrong, check it out in either 2e monster mythology or council of wyrms but I think it was the former. Cannot look it up right now.
 

gyor

Legend
There is also Council of wyrms setting which offered a different approach for a man / dragon "Symbiosis"

Biggest dragon in Lore afaik is the god Io the platinum dragon with I think 800 yards in length and span, I might be wrong, check it out in either 2e monster mythology or council of wyrms but I think it was the former. Cannot look it up right now.
You can't count Dragon Gods, if I remember correctly in some editions they could be as big as they wanted.
 

Coroc

Adventurer
You can't count Dragon Gods, if I remember correctly in some editions they could be as big as they wanted.
Hm only got second edition for that, technically the stats were not for the gods themselves but for their avatar
Looked Io up now, says body length 440' tail length 360' so 800' total. Missremembered color though, he can take all colors but appears normally blue scales edged with silver and dark purple
 

Hussar

Legend
It may have changed later on. But early on this was not the case.
One has to remember that in 1e, dragons weren't actually that big. The DL dragons were the biggest they got under that ruleset.

But, you had dragons wiping out entire nations - how is that not special? One green dragon wipes out the largest elven nation in the land. Pretty special if you ask me.
 

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