Eberron?

[megamania]

From the little I have read so far, it is similiar to my "The Collective" game world. I both curious and looking forward to it being released.

 

[Hamburger Mary]

See my response to Wizardru above for an argument on why I think that this path of thinking leads nowhere useful.

I did, and I respectfully disagree. You're entitled to your opinion, I'll stick with mine. Among other things, you mention earthquake, cure disease, control weather. As I said in my response to, well, you, even cure disease is a rare commodity in Eberron. A lot of your issues are addressed by limiting the existence of high-level magic. I have more trouble with saying "Wizards are extremely common and yet have had no effect on anything!" than "Wizards are rare but have had some impact on the world!". But of course, I'm basing my opinions on what I've read, and maybe I'm wrong. We'll see in a few months.

It's been a long time since I read the first of those books, but the psionics was used by the aliens in those books, right? This fits my view that psionics are alien in swords & sorcery fantasy, and that their best use is on alien worlds (like Athas) or by alien creatures (like mind flayers). Putting them into the mainstream spotlight does them a disservice, IMO...but then, I'm not a fan of psionics anyway.

But as *I* said, the races in Eberron that comprise the psionic culture *are* extraplanar -- IE, alien -- in nature. And while the races in the May books are alien, they are basically attractive humans -- a far cry from mind flayers. Psionics are specifically not in the mainstream, they are given a sensible, defined place on the edge of the world. If you like psionics, you've got a solid foundation for using them. If you don't, stay out of Sarlona and don't use kalashtar PCs. In Athas, psionics are EVERYWHERE; in Eberron, they are in a specific part of the world.

Anyhow, clearly we aren't going to come to an agreement here. I understand where you're coming from -- I just see things differently.

 

[rounser]

As I said in my response to, well, you, even cure disease is a rare commodity in Eberron.

They're deviating from the core rules in this respect? And I'm still not convinced this makes terribly much difference, given the impact even low level spells would have...let alone low level magic items. I mean, the possibilities of burglary with invisibility for instance...again, just one spell turning the social world upside down.

But as *I* said, the races in Eberron that comprise the psionic culture *are* extraplanar -- IE, alien -- in nature.

Okay, I missed that. Good! That's what psionics most suits, IMO.

And while the races in the May books are alien, they are basically attractive humans -- a far cry from mind flayers.

Well, it's completely possible to look human and still be utterly alien, Star Trek stylee. Mind flayers just look more alien (ironic given that squid are definitely terrestrial), but judge a book by it's cover and all that...

 

[d4]

It's been a long time since I read the first of those books, but the psionics was used by the aliens in those books, right? This fits my view that psionics are alien in swords & sorcery fantasy, and that their best use is on alien worlds (like Athas) or by alien creatures (like mind flayers). Putting them into the mainstream spotlight does them a disservice, IMO...but then, I'm not a fan of psionics anyway.

i don't want to derail the thread too much, but Julian May is one of my favorite authors.

firstly, psionics were not used just by the alien Tanu and Firvulag in the Pliocene books. there were many, many human psionic characters as well -- in fact, the three most powerful in the series were human (Marc, Aiken, and Felice).

OTOH, the Saga of Pliocene Exile isn't really fantasy at all -- it's a science fiction story that uses sci-fi trappings to emulate a mythological tale. it can hardly be an example of fantasy IMO when it has no magic (other than psionics), but includes interstellar aliens, time-travel, rayguns, spaceships, etc.

i agree with you though that i find psionics jarring and out of place in a traditional fantasy world. i think Eberron gets it right by compartmentalizing it into one corner of the world -- easy to overlook if you don't want to use it, but there if you do.

 

[Hamburger Mary]

They're deviating from the core rules in this respect?

Deviating from the core rules in what respect? They are changing the demographics from the DMG. Aside from that, what core rule says cure disease has to be commonplace?

What has been said is that spellcasting priests are uncommon, and that divine magic is treated as a miracle of the faith as opposed to a commodity to be bought and sold with gold. Personally, I dislike the temple-as-shop mentality that is common in much of D&D -- Luke 19:45-46 comes to mind. Thus cure disease has not wiped out every plague in existence because the clerics who can cast it are rare and holy, as opposed to being found by the dozens in every city.

*shrug* Again, I am glad to see a setting that is at least trying to address some of these issues instead of just ignoring them. Maybe it will raise more issues, but it's a start. If you'd rather ignore them completely, good for you.

firstly, psionics were not used just by the alien Tanu and Firvulag in the Pliocene books. there were many, many human psionic characters as well -- in fact, the three most powerful in the series were human (Marc, Aiken, and Felice).

True, d4, though as I recall this is partially due to the genetic similarity of the races. The impression I have of Eberron is that all races will be allowed to use psionics, but that the Inspired/kalashtar/Dal Quor are the ultimate source of psionic power... so if you're a human psion, you probably trained in Sarlona or with a kalashtar preceptor.

Lest I come off on the wrong foot, *I'm* not a big fan of psionics in fantasy. I don't like Dark Sun because psionics are too omnipresent. But I don't like FR because they have no place in the world whatsoever (that I know of). Like d4, I like the idea that there is a place for psionics in the world that makes sense, but that psions aren't going to be in my face all the time; there's simply a good explanation for them if a PC wants to be a psion, and a well-defined set of psionic villians when I want to surprise my players with something different (and get some use out of that XPH I paid $30 for).

Of course, I'm just going by what I've read; we'll see what things are really like in a few months.

 

[rounser]

Deviating from the core rules in what respect? They are changing the demographics from the DMG. Aside from that, what core rule says cure disease has to be commonplace?

To be clear, it was a question, I'm not implying it's wrong. (In fact, the NPC level demographics for a world are something that every DM would be severely tempted if not encouraged to tweak, but at least the DMG provides a baseline.)

It's just a mild surprise because I thought Eberron being congruent with the core rules in many other ways (i.e. every monster, spell and race having a place) the same would have extended to DMG demographics, but that was just an assumption on my part.

What has been said is that spellcasting priests are uncommon, and that divine magic is treated as a miracle of the faith as opposed to a commodity to be bought and sold with gold. Personally, I dislike the temple-as-shop mentality that is common in much of D&D -- Luke 19:45-46 comes to mind. Thus cure disease has not wiped out every plague in existence because the clerics who can cast it are rare and holy, as opposed to being found by the dozens in every city.

Fair enough, it's probably hard to keep up. It's still hard for Kings to stay dead though. E.g. In FR, making sure Azoun wasn't coming back... And you have the problem of stockpiles of cure disease magic items (potions, scrolls, wands, whatever) that would get created for a rainy day. The cap is that you couldn't do this for everything because it would bankrupt everyone, but nevertheless, "emergency rescue squad" clerics setting off to a known plague village (they have to start somewhere) with stockpiles of such items is a distinct possibility if you want to explore that avenue...

*shrug* Again, I am glad to see a setting that is at least trying to address some of these issues instead of just ignoring them. Maybe it will raise more issues, but it's a start. If you'd rather ignore them completely, good for you.

It's not that I want to ignore them, common sense says you should explore their implications because it'll improve verisimilitude.

The problem is that in this case I think common sense is wrong, because going a bit down this path opens up a Pandora's Box of other implications that you won't want to explore because they're genre destroying, but our new shade of verisimilitude that isn't built on a foundation of genre assumptions and idioms (because it's too busy compromising them with logical implications) has no brakes, in terms of suspension of disbelief...

Put more simply, sword & sorcery fantasy is a backless maiden. Don't even take a peek unless you're prepared to find out she's totally hollow.

 

[d4]

True, d4, though as I recall this is partially due to the genetic similarity of the races. The impression I have of Eberron is that all races will be allowed to use psionics, but that the Inspired/kalashtar/Dal Quor are the ultimate source of psionic power...

again, i don't want to get too far off on this tangent, but in May's universe all sentient species eventually become psionic. human psionic potential doesn't have anything to do with our genetic relatedness to the Tanu and Firvulag. the Simbiari, Gi, Poltroyans, and Krondaku are also all psionic races, and they are most definitely not related. a case could be made that all the sentient races were tampered with by the Lylmik (and the Lylmik do share a link to humanity that is explained in the later books), but that is merely a hypothesis.

back on-topic, i do see where rounser is going with the commonality of magic and its effects on the world, since that is the very reason i find Eberron unappealing also.

i do agree that it is hard to justify the levels of magic in "default" D&D with the pseudo-medieval / feudal flavor of most settings. Eberron's design seems to take the default level of magic and alter the social and cultural landscape to take that amount of magic into account. that's a valid way of handling it, and i don't have a problem with anyone who wants to explore that.

OTOH, my preference would be to scale back the power and ubiquity of magic to a level where one can retain the medieval / feudal flavor. this is obviously not to everyone's taste (and i assume not to the majority of D&Ders tastes) so i can understand why WOTC chose a setting like Eberron and not something more along the lines of what i would want.

 

[Hamburger Mary]

It's still hard for Kings to stay dead though. E.g. In FR, making sure Azoun wasn't coming back... And you have the problem of stockpiles of cure disease magic items (potions, scrolls, wands, whatever) that would get created for a rainy day.

True. Although if clerics who can cast cure disease are uncommon, how hard is it to find a cleric who can raise the dead? It's been said that the highest level good-aligned NPC cleric is 16th-level; if true, this puts true resurrection out of anyone's reach, at least until a player character reaches that level.

Of course, if one follows the idea that clerical magic is something that can only be paid for with faith as opposed to gold, you get a lot more questions about devout and just rulers. If the king does not support the faith in life, why should the Church aid him in death? Ditto for the plaguestruck village; if god visits a plague upon Sodom, what cleric is going to rush in to cure the sick (well, an evil one, I imagine). This would make a theocracy a powerful force, since there you would imagine the king would have healing at his side.

In general, I get the sense that divine magic is not treated in an industrial fashion as arcane magic is... that arcane magic is a science (component x + incantation y yields effect z), where divine magic is where you get that awe & wonder. Thus you can buy an arcane effect, but offering gold to a cleric is an insult. But again, this is largely conjecture.

Put more simply, sword & sorcery fantasy is a backless maiden. Don't even take a peek unless you're prepared to find out she's totally hollow.

I do see where you're coming from here. When I said "good for you", I meant it. I'm just in a different space. I can't believe in a world like FR because I *can't* get past the omnipresence of magic with lack of consequence. Middle Earth and Conan make sense to me, because magic *is* rare and wondrous. In FR, it's not; it's an everyday thing. In a big city you can't throw a stone without hitting a wizard (and do me a favor -- throw it hard). It sounds to me like Eberron is both reducing the omnipresence of magic and trying to consider some of the consequences of what magic there is. For me, this sounds like a good match. I understand that it's not for you, and I'm sure you're not alone in that. To each their own!

again, i don't want to get too far off on this tangent, but in May's universe all sentient species eventually become psionic.

True, and I imagine that all races will be able to become psions in Eberron (though the warforged are an interesting question). My guess is that Dal Quor, being in some ways the collective unconscious (plane of dreams) is the source of psionic energy, thus the kalashtar and Inspireds' innate psionic powers. The existence of a psionic culture makes it easy to have teachers who can train any race in the use of these techniques. But few people in Khorvaire would bother... why should they when they have magic? Just having a solid basis for having psions and wizards in the same world is something I like, even if I don't plan on using psionics to any significant degree.

But with the Exile (there's no need to answer this, and better not to) -- what do the Tanu find when they perform genetic assays of Aiken and Mercy?

 

[Gez]

Ultima's world is filled with inconsistencies, anyway.

And yes, there's a lot of anacronisms in it. From technological anacronisms (by the way, the Kilrathi ship is in U7: The Black Gate, crashed in a field at the east of Britain) to sociological anacronism (in U7 and UW2, you got a lot of "class warfare" speachs). Of course, it's a world based on a multiverse, and nearly all heroes are supposed to be from Earth (British, Iolo, Shamino, Dupre, and the Avatar). U7 and U9 begins with you (the Avatar) in front of a computer.

But that's not, in fact, too much of a problem.

Remember, medieval feel is first and foremost a mindset. Philosophy is not dictated by technology. You can have a feudal political system with a sci-fi setting (see Dune, Star Wars, or Fading Suns). You can have a "modern democracy" political system with bronze age technology. It's not directly related.

The Forgotten Realms, as a setting, are considered valid Sword & Sorcery, but you'll have trouble finding anything that actually looks medieval inside. Cormyr? Thetyr? Barely.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Actually Herbert used draconian limits on technology to enable a feudalistic feel in Dune:
1 - limited travel - space travel under Guild monopoly which was incapable of being duplicated
2 - individual martial prowess matters - personal shields made melee combat the norm
3 - no access to information available to the general populace - the societal fear/outlawing of computers made the populace dependent on their leaders for information.

Fading Suns mimicks Dune, while Star Wars uses the Force to account for #2 and an authoritarian gvmnt to account for #1 and #3.

D&D presumes #2 (most RPGs do) and travel/commmunication spells are still rare enough in the core rules to allow for a feudal/medieval setting - and I agree that there is little medieval in FR.

It would be possible, using the core rules, to set up a modern democracy but it would take dedicated effort and involvement of many capable spellcasters - or be very limited in scope (like the city states of ancient Greece).