Eberron?

[~Johnny~]

I'm starting to think that maybe rounser doesn't like this whole Eberron concept

The designer has said that it did start out being over the top but that this changed as early as the 10-page submission, and that the comparisons to Indiana Jones are about the tone of the action, not the trappings of the world.

Well said. For more from Eberron designer Keith Baker on this subject, click here.

But I've never seen anything implying that they are a culture unto themselves. I know that *orcs* have a distinct culture, and that this may justify the existence of half-orcs beyond random rape. We'll see.

Just a note on this. One of the Dragon articles mention half-orcs will be a bit more common and have a defined culture, though it's a small one that borrows heavily from their parent races. The basic idea is that at some point in Eberron's long history, half-orcs started marrying one another and having children. There's still plenty of room for "born of two races, but at home among neither" angst, but it's also possible to play a second-generation half-orc. This fits well with the fact that while orcs are still feared by humans, they're not just scary monsters living in the forest. In fact, orcs were the first druids, and there's plenty of backstory yet to be revealed. The Shadow Marches half-orcs (I love that picture) are probably the largest half-orc settlement.

They're deviating from the core rules in this respect? And I'm still not convinced this makes terribly much difference, given the impact even low level spells would have...let alone low level magic items. I mean, the possibilities of burglary with invisibility for instance...again, just one spell turning the social world upside down.

Like most mage spells in the wake of the destructive Last War, invisibility isn't particularly common. And it has a counterspell available at the same level, which I think should keep the social effects pretty balanced. Again, the point is not that everyone in the world is extraordinary; the point is to provide a rich context for extraordinary people.

Well, it's completely possible to look human and still be utterly alien, Star Trek stylee. Mind flayers just look more alien (ironic given that squid are definitely terrestrial), but judge a book by it's cover and all that...

In fact, the unearthly Inspired (and presumably, the Kalashtar) look like beautiful humans. The souls of the Inspired reside on Dal Quor, the plane of dreams, which gives them the innate ability to harness the powers of the mind. Beings of other races can tap into similar abilities with training.

Interestingly, mind flayers appear less connected to psionics than to the concept of madness. Like other aberrations, Illithid are the result of Eberron's conterminous period with Xoriat, the plane of madness. This event thousands of year ago unleashed Cthuloid abominations that druids (like the aforementioned orcs) were barely able to repel.

(All the planar stuff in the setting's history is really cool. It's a great way to pull in some of the inventive flavor of Planescape while remaining rooted in a more traditional fantasy world.)

It's just a mild surprise because I thought Eberron being congruent with the core rules in many other ways (i.e. every monster, spell and race having a place) the same would have extended to DMG demographics, but that was just an assumption on my part.

In one sense, Eberron adheres more to the DMG than any published setting does: all those NPC fighters and mages in Forgotten Realms are actually warriors and adepts in Eberron, as the DMG recommends. This fits well with Keith Baker's core description of Eberron's themes: "War. Action. Intrigue. Exploration. Magic. PCs as extraordinary individuals with the ability to make a difference in the world." The magewright is part of this philosophy, put prestidigitation and mount into the hands of NPCs, without giving them the tools to turn every village into a city of wonders like Sharn.

Just a note on the "every monster, spell and race having a place" comment. While many races -- giants, goblinoids, demons and aberrations -- have an established place in the setting, it's not just a case of finding a place for everything in the kitchen sink. Another quote from Keith:

That doesn't mean that abeil, aranea, grimlocks, and every monster under the sun has a preestablished role in the world: it means that if there is something you want to bring in, it should be easy to find a logical place to put it.

One last comment on magic "making sense." A homebrew setting is a good place to make monsters and magic rare and extraordinary, something that only the heroes encounter. But a published campaign setting needs to have scads of monsters waiting around for adventurers, and a wealth of character generation options for characters who want to use magic. Combine that with some decent justification for PCs to remain extraordinary individuals and you've got my attention.

You can have a perfectly wonderful fantasy novel where the characters spend all their time fighting one kind of enemy -- like orcs or humans -- but to do so in D&D can get pretty dull. Give me a monster-filled world, along with intertwined cultures and histories for all the major monsters, and I'll take what I want from it. Omission is easy; creation is time-consuming and keeps me away from the actual roleplaying.

 

[Hamburger Mary]

I mean, the possibilities of burglary with invisibility for instance...again, just one spell turning the social world upside down.

I missed the specific mention of invisibility. Obviously this is a trivial point, but do you really think it would turn the world upside down? Since wizards and sorcerers are uncommon, let's assume that we're talking about a 5th-level adept. He can turn invisible for 5 minutes once per day. Move Silently, Disable Device, Open Locks, and Search are not class skills for him. Provided his target doesn't have a good Listen check, he can wait for his target to unlock a door and follow him through it, but remember, he only has 5 minutes of invisibility! When he runs into a safe with an excellent lock, he's out of luck. And I'll point out that between the magewright and the adept, see invisibility, detect magic, alarm, and arcane lock are all out there -- but knock is only available to the rarer sorcerer and wizard. If invisibility lasted for 10 min/level, I'd see it as being more of a world-shattering effect for purposes of crime and espionage -- but 1 min/level doesn't seem like enough time to get into a lot of trouble.

Now, the sorcerer/rogue with invisibility, knock, Hide, Move Silently, Search, and Disable Device? That's another story. But that's exactly the point. In Eberron, characters with PC classes are supposed to be rare and remarkable. Such a character would be a devilish thief who is constantly outwitting the city guard; they'd have to turn to equally capable PC characters to bring down this uncommon thief.

 

[Ulrick]

I have enough gaming material to probably last me a good lifetime now. Only if I deem Eberron of excellent quality will I buy it.

 

[d4]

But with the Exile (there's no need to answer this, and better not to) -- what do the Tanu find when they perform genetic assays of Aiken and Mercy?

hey H.M., if you want to discuss Julian May more, drop me an email! i don't want to clutter up this thread any more, but i'd love to have someone to talk with about the books. (no one i know personally has read them.) :\

 

[rounser]

I missed the specific mention of invisibility. Obviously this is a trivial point, but do you really think it would turn the world upside down? Since wizards and sorcerers are uncommon, let's assume that we're talking about a 5th-level adept.

Yes, I do...and the rarity of the casters isn't really a defense, either. In the real world, a handful of invisible criminals who are active enough would create havoc and require complete rethinking of any serious security. And this is a world with video surveillance cameras and other technology...

It is probably pointless to quibble over just one point, because the invisibility example was simply one among many, many spells and items that would change society fundamentally in myriad ways...it was just off the top of my head, I don't have a PHB at hand, but I'd expect there's plenty more where that came from, if you really stopped to work out the implications of even a single spell. It's the Pandora's Box you think you can open, but that's just one of countless problems lurking inside...you want to go through the spell list? We've already got Edison's light bulb for everyone and revolutionised crime and we haven't even begun...

 

[buzz]

It is probably pointless to quibble over just one point...

Why not just chalk it up to Eberron not floating your boat, and not worry about it? I mean, is Eberron necessarily flawed just because it doesn't interest you? (And I pose these questions in all seriousness, not in an attempt to be snide.)

Not to mention we've only seen a small portion of the setting so far.

 

[rounser]

Why not just chalk it up to Eberron not floating your boat, and not worry about it?

I got into this thread because I saw something I didn't agree with, namely that some other campaign settings were "wonky", in some way which it was implied Eberron wasn't by that same criteria. Since then it's been arguing points back and forth.

I mean, is Eberron necessarily flawed just because it doesn't interest you?

No. But it's not necessarily any good just because it interests you, to reverse the logic you've used there.

Not to mention we've only seen a small portion of the setting so far.

That I can agree with. As I mentioned earlier, it may well turn out to be a synergistic masterpiece.

 

[Hamburger Mary]

Since then it's been arguing points back and forth.

I've been seeing it as a discussion as opposed to an argument - everything's been perfectly civil, and I'm only continuing it because I'm actually interested in the discussion. So on that note, two more things:
1. Rounser, you never actually addressed my question of *how* five minutes of invisibility makes someone a master criminal - you just said that you felt that it would. I honestly would be interested in hearing the answer to this. Again, without the skill to penetrate a lock and without the time for long-term eavesdropping or waiting for someone to open a critical door, how does a few minutes of invisibility change the world?

2. The big issue here is that you (seem to) feel that once you start exploring you have to continue to the bitter end. I don't. Yes, the electric light had a tremendous amount of social implications. However, I'm perfectly happy to say "Major cities in Eberron use continual flame instead of torches" without stopping to say "now wait a second... what does that mean?" Being perfectly honest, do you think that most DMs really consider the effect that the ABSENCE of reliable lighting should be having on their lower-magic settings? Looking at my own campaign, I have to say that I haven't; suddenly having a reliable lightsource makes the world I have been running seem more realistic than it did before.

But basically, I *can* stop halfway. I can say "It makes sense to me that if there are spellcasters that can cast prestidigitation, you'll find them running inns and laundry services" and let it go there. I don't feel the obligation to say "But wait! Then why hasn't..." If you do, then I'm certain that Eberron will disappoint you. Heck, it's only a 320-page book, and I'm sure the social impact of prestidigitation alone could take 15 pages of discussion. It won't bother me if that isn't explored; I'd rather have 15 pages of interesting countries or monsters. But I'd still be happy to see the amazing social value of prestidigitation acknowledged in some way!

 

[rounser]

Rounser, you never actually addressed my question of *how* five minutes of invisibility makes someone a master criminal - you just said that you felt that it would.

Well - people just go around and lift things in plain sight. Just how much easier do you think it becomes when they're invisible, let alone escape if they're detected? You can run a long way in five minutes. You can stop and hide and be overlooked. Yes, I think a daily five minutes of invisibility would turn someone into a supercriminal, even in a modern society, let alone in a medieval one. And I've got no doubt it would change society's security measures significantly...remember, not even modern technology can do this.

The big issue here is that you (seem to) feel that once you start exploring you have to continue to the bitter end.

Hypocrisy doesn't suit you.

But basically, I *can* stop halfway. I can say "It makes sense to me that if there are spellcasters that can cast prestidigitation, you'll find them running inns and laundry services" and let it go there. I don't feel the obligation to say "But wait! Then why hasn't..." If you do, then I'm certain that Eberron will disappoint you. Heck, it's only a 320-page book, and I'm sure the social impact of prestidigitation alone could take 15 pages of discussion. It won't bother me if that isn't explored; I'd rather have 15 pages of interesting countries or monsters. But I'd still be happy to see the amazing social value of prestidigitation acknowledged in some way!

You've attempted to imply that I'd rather see pages wasted on exploration of the implications of magic on society - no, that's your interest, and your problem, not mine. But I think this means we're at a standstill; this is exactly the admission I would have been happy to see earlier in this thread...it took us a while to get here.

P.S. Excellent choice of spell to illustrate your point, by the way...I mean, it's clearly unreasonable to ignore the impact of something as harmless as Prestidigitation...only a 0 level spell, what possible harm could it do?

 

[Hamburger Mary]

remember, not even modern technology can do this.

Sure, but detect magic, alarm, and see invisibility all can. And as you say, shoplifters, pursesnatchers and pickpockets can all do this without magic, so what's really changed? You take invisibility, I'll take Sleight of Hand +11 (assuming a 5th level character with a +3 Dex modifier). Anyhow, fair enough. We disagree.

(Of course, I don't think every shop is going to have someone sitting there using see invisibility all the time, because I don't think magic is going to be that prevalent. But in an important high-security area -- a king's throne room -- it could be done.)

Hypocrisy doesn't suit you.

And I didn't mean to be hypocritical. I was refering specifically to your post about fantasy being a backless maiden, which I thought was a good image. My point was that I can look at it and say "Yup, it's hollow, but at least I've thrown a handful of sand in there" and that makes me happy. I don't need to fill it, but I'd rather acknowledge that it's hollow than overlook it completely.

You've attempted to imply that I'd rather see pages wasted on exploration of the implications of magic on society.

Actually, that wasn't my intention at all, and I apologize if that's how it came across. It's clear that isn't what you want. What I was meant was that you appeared to be saying that I *couldn't* explore magic slightly without taking it all the way. That the moment I throw continual flame onto the streets, I should be considering all of its myriad implications. I'm just saying that I can take one step without feeling the need to go all the way, and that taking that one step makes me feel better about the world.

However, from the tone of your last message, I gather that I've offended you. If so, I apologize. I've felt that we've been at a standstill all along, I've just enjoyed the discussion and been interested in your ideas. I asked about invisibility because I wanted to know what you thought could be done with it, not because I wanted to prove you were wrong. I don't feel that there is a right or wrong here; I feel that your opinion makes perfect sense, it's just different from mine. Anyhow, thanks for the discussion, and I suppose it's high time to let it die!