Eberron?

Are you looking forward to Eberron?

  • Yes! Eberron will certainly be my next setting!

    Votes: 57 12.1%
  • Yes. It looks interesting and I might well pick it up.

    Votes: 197 41.8%
  • I am Switzerland. Either I don't have enough information or I just don't care.

    Votes: 101 21.4%
  • No. It just does not look appealing at all.

    Votes: 92 19.5%
  • No and I am upset that it is even seeing print.

    Votes: 24 5.1%

But that implies a *very* high level of magic industrialization -- having wizards powerful enough to create such gates in the first place, and then spread them across the world. I like the fact that in Eberron teleport *is* something impressive, that a wizard who can cast the spell is a remarkable individual, and that people don't just say "Teleport? I'll just take the portal."
I disagree entirely - the Ultima world has Moongates which fit this description, keeps the assumptions of a sword & sorcery world completely intact, and none of the unnecessary industrial age anachronisms that a magic train implies.

It's the same difference between having a magic carpet and a magic jet aeroplane, or a wand of magic missiles as opposed to a magical machine gun. The latter breaks stride with the poetic assumptions of swords & sorcery magic, and replaces it with anachronism.
 
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rounser said:
It's the same difference between having a magic carpet and a magic jet aeroplane, or a wand of magic missiles as opposed to a magical machine gun. The latter breaks stride with the poetic assumptions of swords & sorcery magic, and replaces it with anachronism.
Well, taking the moongate example, moongates are a natural phenomenon. This is yet another entirely different approach, since in Eberron the lightning rail is supposed to be the result of humans apllying magic in an industrial fashion. To me it sounds like we're basically arguing about a point of appearance. If the lightning rail was a really long flying carpet, or a chain of flying carpets, would it bother you? Does it matter what the explanation of it is? Personally, if it burns "magic coal" in a "magic engine" I'll agree with you -- that's just a train, and has no place in a supposedly magical world. But what if it is powered by ley lines, and that's what the "rails" are? This would tie into magical principles and explain why it's a railed vehicle to begin with. Would that be any more acceptable?

I'm also curious -- what do you dislike about Eberron beyond the train? Eberron doesn't have magic jet aeroplanes -- it's got airships, which seem to be very traditional magic from what I've seen. It's been specifically said on these boards that people use crossbows as opposed to machine guns of magic missles (or guns of any sort). Is this all about the train, or is there more to it?

Though if we're talking about anachronisms in fantasy, I don't think Ultima is really the best world to champion your cause -- lasers? Rocket ships? Mad computers? Ring any bells?
 
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I'm also curious -- what do you dislike about Eberron beyond the train? Eberron doesn't have magic jet aeroplanes -- it's got airships, which seem to be very traditional magic from what I've seen. It's been specifically said on these boards that people use crossbows as opposed to machine guns of magic missles (or guns of any sort). Is this all about the train, or is there more to it?
Yeah, there is a bit more to it. One of the promises of Eberron is that it'll make swords & sorcery fantasy "make sense", by taking what it implies with having that much magic lying around to it's logical conclusions. I'm a firm believer that this completely defeats the purpose of swords & sorcery fantasy, and ruins a lot of what's special about it - the role of wizards in society is completely unrealistic, but there are good reasons for that . There's also lots of extending D&D gamist elements to their logical conclusions, which according to me is just plain loopy, because the simulation (D&D being a rough simulation of S&S fantasy with gamist compromises) then begins to define what it's simulating, which defeats the purpose of bothering to simulate a genre in the first place if you're just going to burn the house down by putting the gamist compromise elements (like the spell system, which is designed for PCs to go adventuring, not for commoners to grow crops) on a pedestal and emphasise their influence on the setting rather than attempt to ignore them (which is the lesser evil, IMO). I've argued these points several times before, and after having raised it here, no doubt I'll have to again...

Other things I don't like about it include mixing a thoroughly contemporary genre, pulp, with medieval S&S fantasy (although I've been assured in this thread that the detectives and dames are gone, now, so that may be a non-issue, but if the setting's designed in that spirit and had it weeded out there's bound to be leftovers) as opposed to something less prone to bring along anachronistic baggage like dark future (i.e. Dark Sun), the awkward kitchen sink inclusion of all core D&D into the setting as a decision made primarily for purposes of marketing rather than reasons of flavour...and finally, little things, the difficult to stomach stuff that's been highlighted like dinorider halflings and magic trains, and that picture of a half-orc on stilts with an asian peasant's hat just really annoys me for some reason I can't really articulate (I think it's the concept of half-orcs having a culture unto themselves which runs counter to my conception of them...they're rare halfbreeds, they have no culture to speak of, but they're being considered a full blown race...perhaps for gamist reasons? I may be mistaken but I got that impression from the text). And there was a rumour that it was going to be psionically heavy, but looks like they've backpedalled on that too (if it was ever true), and psionics gone mainstream instead of alien and rare, except in a world that's supposed to be alien in entirety like Athas, raises my hackles for other reasons which I'm not going to go into here...

(In case you're wondering, I never submitted anything to the setting search, so there's no sour grapes at the core of my aversion to what I've seen so far.)

A lot of that can be rebuked and defused, but the overall vibe I'm getting from this setting from what we've been shown is not my cup of tea at all...and it's being touted as a progressive new direction for D&D (which I consider pretty pretentious since I think it's a misguided new direction to start with, such as with the gamist oddities of the simulation defining what's simulated), with WotC's full might behind it...from what I've seen so far, I don't want to see D&D going in that direction! Nevertheless, it hasn't been released yet, and may well become a synergistic masterpiece so I'll reappraise when it is...
Though if we're talking about anachronisms in fantasy, I don't think Ultima is really the best world to champion your cause -- lasers? Rocket ships? Mad computers? Ring any bells?
I've only played Ultima IV, and that was limited to hot air balloons, technology-wise, from memory. I've heard about crashed Kilrathi fighter in one of the later ones though.
 
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rounser said:
There's also lots of extending D&D gamist elements to their logical conclusions, which according to me is just plain loopy, because the simulation (D&D being a rough simulation of S&S fantasy with gamist compromises) then begins to define what it's simulating, which defeats the purpose of bothering to simulate a genre in the first place if you're just going to burn the house down by putting the gamist compromise elements (like the spell system, which is designed for PCs to go adventuring, not for commoners to grow crops) on a pedestal and emphasise their influence on the setting rather than attempt to ignore them (which is the lesser evil, IMO). I've argued these points several times before, and after having raised it here, no doubt I'll have to again...
Well, while I understand and appreciate that, I didn't get the impression that commoners didn't grow crops....more that they now assume that the 1st level cleric in town actually decides that using his create water and mending cantrips is more useful to the town than adventuring. The ripple effect of magic (and let's be honest, that's what were really talking about here) is commonly ignored or glossed over in the core setting. I can see how you'd view that as the tail wagging the dog, but not all of us view it that way. Neither view is wrong (and I didn't think you were implying otherwise).

rounser said:
Other things I don't like about it include mixing a thoroughly contemporary genre, pulp, with medieval S&S fantasy (although I've been assured in this thread that the detectives and dames are gone, now,
Apparently we have different definition of 'pulp'. Conan, IMHO, is pulp. When were detectives and dames actually in the setting? I'm getting an impression that WotC's poor information release has created a lot of myths about the setting which are morphing into "they removed it from the setting", when it actually was never in it to begin with.

rounser said:
I've only played Ultima IV, and that was limited to hot air balloons, technology-wise, from memory. I've heard about crashed Kilrathi fighter in one of the later ones though.
Wasn't the final boss in Ultima IV a super-computer? There were other anachronisms, too, like the modern-style lighthouse and the clock things and so forth. And I thought I recalled the use of lasers in the game, but they can easily become 'magical energy' and there's not much difference.
 

Well, while I understand and appreciate that, I didn't get the impression that commoners didn't grow crops....more that they now assume that the 1st level cleric in town actually decides that using his create water and mending cantrips is more useful to the town than adventuring.
Not really what I meant...more that, the spell system is designed wholly and solely for adventuring purposes (those interesting FR spells that weren't, in fact, intended for adventurers, occasionally popping up in the sourcebooks, didn't make it into the new edition). What I meant was, trying to logically apply the effect of this specifically aimed hero magic on general society is almost guaranteed to be a recipe for trouble, and best ignored unless you want to see the entire tapestry unravel before your eyes.

It seems that struggling with the implications of Create Water and Earthquake and giants and flying monsters on castles and sieges, Cure Disease and lay on hands on plagues, Plant Growth, Decanters of Endless Water, that magic item that makes gruel and Control Weather on droughts and famines etc. has been a thorn in the side of the game's verisimilitude since early days. There are no reasons why wizards, clerics and druids wouldn't turn society upside down with change if the the implications of their capabilities were explored fully. You could forget about even a semblance of medieval atmosphere, because it would be bulldozed instantly by every house having permanent magical lighting...and that's just one spell.

To go some of the way down this path and ignore the rest is a Faustian bargain; if X is there, compromising a swords & sorcery fantasy idiom because it's a "realistic" result of magic in society, then why aren't implications Y and Z also true? It's a one way street which looks on the surface like we're getting somewhere, but actually leads nowhere good, IMO...
Apparently we have different definition of 'pulp'. Conan, IMHO, is pulp.
Agreed, although I distinguish "pulp fantasy" (e.g. Conan) from "pulpy pulp", i.e. pulp in a contemporary setting. Eberron has been purported to be the latter (see reply to next paragraph).
When were detectives and dames actually in the setting?
I think it's from one of Keith Baker's posts on this board from the early days, where he was describing a dwarven detective with a battleaxe who was talking to a "dame". I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine it. Someone said this material was from the original setting submission, and had since been rescinded - that may be the rumour I'm helping spread.
I'm getting an impression that WotC's poor information release has created a lot of myths about the setting which are morphing into "they removed it from the setting", when it actually was never in it to begin with.
As I said, I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine it, although I've probably got at least one detail wrong.
Wasn't the final boss in Ultima IV a super-computer?
I never completed Quest of the Avatar, but I did read a walkthrough about a year ago, and no, I don't think so. You had to state the One True Axiom and some other stuff, but if there had been a supercomputer mentioned in the walkthrough, I doubt I would have forgotten because it would have stuck out like a sore thumb.
There were other anachronisms, too, like the modern-style lighthouse and the clock things and so forth. And I thought I recalled the use of lasers in the game, but they can easily become 'magical energy' and there's not much difference.
I think we're definitely thinking of different Ultimas, as I don't recall any of that stuff...

Luckily, there's an expert on such matters about. Argh, where's my material components? Need to cast Summon Hong...now, was that 2 parts mandrake, four parts spider silk...
 
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Ultima 3: Exodus, featured a supercomputer at the main boss at the end of the game. Phasers were featured in Ultima 2 (as were bi-planes, rocket ships, and time travel). Some of Ultima 2's "worlds" were based on earth.

--G
 
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rounser said:
I'm a firm believer that this completely defeats the purpose of swords & sorcery fantasy, and ruins a lot of what's special about it - the role of wizards in society is completely unrealistic, but there are good reasons for that... I've argued these points several times before, and after having raised it here, no doubt I'll have to again...
Not at all. Just because I don't feel the same way doesn't mean that I expect you to agree with me. To me, it all depends on how common wizards are. In Lord of the Rings, they are extremely rare, and it makes sense that they wouldn't have much impact on society. In FR or by the DMG demographics, they are extremely common -- so much so that they can't all be adventurers. And that's my thing: If there are lots of wizards, they ought to have an impact on the world. Of course, Eberron has actually specifically said that it's limiting the number of NPCs that use PC classes, so that a PC wizard will be a remarkable character; I'm glad to hear this, personally. Following from the last Dragon article, it seems the majority of common spells are things like mending, prestidigitation, continual flame, augury, and the new magecraft spell -- not teleport, sending, or things like that which would dramaticlaly change the feel of civilization. It's also been said that most priests are not actually clerics -- so cure disease is a miraculous thing, and the temple is not a shopping center.

rounser said:
Other things I don't like about it include mixing a thoroughly contemporary genre, pulp, with medieval S&S fantasy (although I've been assured in this thread that the detectives and dames are gone, now, so that may be a non-issue, but if the setting's designed in that spirit and had it weeded out there's bound to be leftovers)
Actually, this has been clarified by the designer. This is based on the inclusion of a sentence from the 1-page submission in one of the WotC previews, intended to show where the setting had begun at what it had since become. The designer has said that it did start out being over the top but that this changed as early as the 10-page submission, and that the comparisons to Indiana Jones are about the tone of the action, not the trappings of the world. He's also mentioned Conan as an example of what he considers to be "pulp".

rounser said:
the difficult to stomach stuff that's been highlighted like dinorider halflings and magic trains, and that picture of a half-orc on stilts with an asian peasant's hat just really annoys me for some reason I can't really articulate (I think it's the concept of half-orcs having a culture unto themselves which runs counter to my conception of them...they're rare halfbreeds, they have no culture to speak of, but they're being considered a full blown race...perhaps for gamist reasons? I may be mistaken but I got that impression from the text).
I'm not sure where you got the half-orc impression. It would obviously be strange, since they are a halfbreed race. What I have gathered is that both humans and orcs live in the Shadow Marches, and thus half-orcs are more common there than in other places in the world. But I've never seen anything implying that they are a culture unto themselves. I know that *orcs* have a distinct culture, and that this may justify the existence of half-orcs beyond random rape. We'll see.

rounser said:
And there was a rumour that it was going to be psionically heavy, but looks like they've backpedalled on that too (if it was ever true), and psionics gone mainstream instead of alien and rare, except in a world that's supposed to be alien in entirety like Athas, raises my hackles for other reasons which I'm not going to go into here...
I don't think anything's changed, I think it was a matter of assumption before information was released. There is a continent where the dominant civilization has been affected by the existence of psionics, just as Khorvaire has cultures affected by the presence of magic. There are two races that have innate psionic abilities that are found on this continent. The impression I gather is that they are somewhat alien -- that their psionic abilities are the result of a tie to one of the outer planes. The word from the designer is that he wanted psionics to have a logical place in the world as opposed to being random mutations, but that they are intentionally placed at a distance from the center of the action and can thus be dropped easily by DMs who don't want to use psionics. As a fan of Julian May's Pliocene Exile books, I like the idea of a well-constructed psionic society; it's always bothered me that D&D provides the rules for them but that none of the settings (DS aside) give them any sort of place in the world.

But again, I respect your opinion... just sharing mine.

And yes, it was Ultima 1-3 I was refering to. I believe that Ultima Online 2 was also going to have a technological society.
 

rounser said:
Agreed, although I distinguish "pulp fantasy" (e.g. Conan) from "pulpy pulp", i.e. pulp in a contemporary setting. Eberron has been purported to be the latter (see reply to next paragraph).
It strikes me more as post-gothic pulp punk, with a touch of gritty mid-fantasy high-magic cinematicity-noir, almost verging on a quasi-Vancian, Moorcockish melange of modernist and ur-existential reframings of traditional para-fantasy leitmotifs, only with butt-kickin' über cyborgz.
 

And that's my thing: If there are lots of wizards, they ought to have an impact on the world.
See my response to Wizardru above for an argument on why I think that this path of thinking leads nowhere useful.
As a fan of Julian May's Pliocene Exile books, I like the idea of a well-constructed psionic society; it's always bothered me that D&D provides the rules for them but that none of the settings (DS aside) give them any sort of place in the world.
It's been a long time since I read the first of those books, but the psionics was used by the aliens in those books, right? This fits my view that psionics are alien in swords & sorcery fantasy, and that their best use is on alien worlds (like Athas) or by alien creatures (like mind flayers). Putting them into the mainstream spotlight does them a disservice, IMO...but then, I'm not a fan of psionics anyway.
 

I will pick it up for no other reason that it mirrors my homebrew in in some many ways. It will be interesting to see how some one else extrapolates similar ideas and what areas I never thougth of.
 

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