ECL of Planetouched races too High?

[kreynolds]

While its one thing to say those of type [Undead] use Cha for Con is completely different from saying Fire Gensai (and Fire Gensai alone) use Wis for Sorceror spells and not Cha.

Like the monk, and the monk alone, gets to add his Wisdom bonus to AC? It's not a stretch. Heck, the monk gets to add both Wisdom _and_ Dexterity to his AC. What was mentioned for fire genasi is about _swapping_ their primary spellcasting ability score for a different one. Compared to the monk, that doesn't seem like a big deal or a wild and crazy idea that breaks the boundaries of 3rd edition.

Although I do agree a Fire Gensai Sorceror is a great concept, and one I've thought about before.

I love the Gensai races but they're all +1 ECL but not really worth it (ok, maybe Air) so I've never played one.

I currently play a fire genasi fighter, and to be honest, its the most fun I've ever had with a character (except for my literary characters, but that's a whole different ballgame). It definately sucks with the +1 ECL, and you can believe me, I feel it every step of the way.

Actually, now that I think about it, this is some really useful info I could share. Let me run down the party; I play a fire genasi, there's an air genasi cleric, a tiefling, and a dwarven fighter. The dwarven fighter and tiefling are really close in their strength's, but the dwarf definately takes the cake as far as power is concerned. The air genasi cleric and my fire genasi fighter lag behind the tiefling quite a bit, and way further behind the dwarf.

As a simple fighter, I can tell you that my fire genasi is no match at all, in any way shape or form, against that dwarf. His racial abilities simply don't make up for the loss of a level. Not by a longshot. Like I said, the air genasi and tiefling suffer from this as well, but with such a clear cut simplistic fighter, my fire genasi is the most pronounced.

Supposedly Races of Faerun has some nice stuff so I need to check it out ...

IIRC, its got about a page and a half on fire genasi, maybe two. There's really not that much there, but what is there is kinda cool, except for those really lame anime illustrations. Don't get me wrong. I like anime just fine, but not when it comes to D&D. Ugh.

(err ... I rambled there a little huh?)

It's all good. So did I.

 

[Benben]

Although I do agree a Fire Gensai Sorceror is a great concept, and one I've thought about before.

This is one of the rare cases where I encourage my players to take spell casting prodigy.

 

[Staffan]

Like the monk, and the monk alone, gets to add his Wisdom bonus to AC?

That's a class ability. My tolerance for bending rules is a bit wider when it comes to class abilities than it is for races *modifying* classes.

I don't have a problem with one class using its Charisma to power spells and another using Intelligence. I do have a problem with sorcerers using Charisma to power their spells *unless* they're fire genasi, in which case they use Intelligence - that's just not how Sorcerers work. If you want to make fire genasi good sorcerers despite their Charisma penalty, it's much better to give them a specific bonus to Cha that only works for Sorcerer spellcasting (a la the Spellcasting Prodigy feat) than to swap out the ability dependency.

 

[kreynolds]

That's a class ability. My tolerance for bending rules is a bit wider when it comes to class abilities than it is for races *modifying* classes.

Racial abilities do not modify classes any more than classes modify racial abilities. Which means that both of them can do just that. The monk does it. Several races ban certain classes altogther. Should these be thrown out as well? Racial abilities that constitute an ECL modifier are _equal to classes_ (they are supposed to be, anyway). If they weren't, there wouldn't be an ECL modifier.

...that's just not how Sorcerers work.

The Kir-Lanan disallows the cleric, druid, and paladin classes outright, and they can't use positive energy in any way. A bard can cast cure spells using positive energy. That's just how bards work, but the Kir-Lanan does not allow the use of positive energy. Thus, kir-lanan bards cannot cast cure spells, and that just isn't how bards work. Do you have a problem with the Kir-Lanan in this regard?

If you want to make fire genasi good sorcerers despite their Charisma penalty, it's much better to give them a specific bonus to Cha that only works for Sorcerer spellcasting (a la the Spellcasting Prodigy feat) than to swap out the ability dependency.

Actually, I just had a cool idea. You know how a low Charisma results in poor Intimidation skills? There you go. Let the fire genasi use his Charisma penalty as a bonus in regards to spellcasting. Damn. I like the sound of that!

 

[satori01]

Part of the problem of comparing ECL issues is made extremely difficult by frankly the base races. Dwarves and Halflings receive a lot of bonuses,(+1 saves, +1 hit thrown weapons great skill bonus/ poison and magic save bonuses racial darkvision) that I believe when added to another race would lead people to claim that it would be a higher ECL.

Unbalanced stat bonuses to my mind do not always have to necesitate an automatic ECL adjustment. I am not sure a Hobgoblin at an ECL 0 would be any more powerful than a Dwarf.
At ECL +1 I believe the Hobgoblin is at a definite disadvantage.
(Please dont take this to mean that obviously unbalanced stats are ok by me, frankly +2/+2 and a minor skill bump +darkvision is the high end of "balanced")

The Native Outsider is the crux of the ECL bump for the planetouched races. All of them are pretty balanced to play if you removed the outsider tag and let them operate as normal people.
Frankly almost anyone would rather advance as an outsider than as a character class, hmm 8 hd and 8 skill points a level. Native Outsider is a "fish out of water" catergory and I think really muddles the field,(holy mixed metaphors batman!).

Concerning the feats in Races of Fareun having to be rebalanced for any lowering of ECL I couldnt disagree more. First off the idea of designing good feats to address the poor design of crappy ECL races is a sickening concept to me. Hmm this race is gimped so lets give him a Death Blow feat in an optional product to comensate. BLeh! If this was truly the designers intent than the employees of WOTC should be marched in the fields and shot with high caliber rifles,(farcical statement(tm)).

The feats are fine as are for any level imho, as they are limited in scope,(ie only particular races can take them), and one spends feats exploring one's hertiage that could be spent on nifty things like magic item creation, metamagic, combat feat etc. The cool factor outweighs any powergame factor, again imho.

 

[Murrdox]

Lemme just clarify my thinking when I say that a +4 to an attribute should automatically make that race a +2 ECL.

Attribute bonuses are HUGE advantages. There are ways to get around the absense of to hit bonuses (more str) skills (more int) hit points (more con) and so on and so forth.

I pretty much look at the ECL balancing as such:

+0 ECL - max of +2 to an attribute. Must be balanced by at least a -2 elsewhere. Instead of an extra human feat, skill points, and multiclassing ability, minor abilities such as +2 to +4 skill bonuses, darkvision, and limited +1 saving throw modifiers may be added. A high bonus in one area should generally be negated in another area. (+1 saving throw bonus should not also allow a +4 skill bonus, max the race should have would be +2)

+1 ECL - max of +2 to 2 different attrbutes. May have higher saving throw or skill bonuses, up to +4 to +6. May have limited +2 saving throw bonuses. Minor spell-like abilities, such as cantrips and level 1-2 spells can be added. Level 1 and 2 abilities should be restricted to 1/day, cantrips generally 3/day. More powerful spell like abilities and skill bonuses should be balanced with the attribute bonuses and penalties.

+2 ECL - max of +4 to one attribute, and a net bonus of +6 attribute points maximum (ie +4 dex, +2 con and +2 str must have a -2 in another attribute). May have a minor global bonus to saves, or a major limited bonus to saves. Moderate abilties such as flight, Spell Resistance, enhanced movement, natural weapons, and natural armor are allowed. Natural armor and weapons should generally be restricted to +2 AC or D6 damage. User may have more spell like abilities, or a single more powerful spell like ability, generally up to level 4. More powerful spell-like abilities or natural abilities should be kept balanced by lowering attribute bonuses, saves, etc.

+3 ECL - max of +6 to one attribute, net bonus of +8. May have a moderate global bonus to saves, and large limited bonuses (up to +6). Major natural abilities could include damage reduction, more powerful methods of movement (enchanced flight, swimming) major elemental resistance (10-15) natural armor (+4-+6 bonus) and more powerful natural weapons. Spell like abilites can get to level 4-5, use within reason (1/day) for more powerful ones.


And so on and so forth. I think this system is at least somewhat similar to what Wizards uses when trying to keep the power levels of +ECL races at least somewhat similar.

 

[Greybar]

Let the fire genasi use his Charisma penalty as a bonus in regards to spellcasting. Damn. I like the sound of that!

Eep! So apply the 8 from a standard array to Chr, take the penalty, put the good rolls in the other slots and be rewarded for it?

I think the aformentioned Spellcasting Prodigy is a better way to go. Similarly, what if the fire genasi not only got +1 to saves vs. fire, but gained a +2DC to fire-based spells that they cast?

They might not get more spells (though the Spellcasting Prodigy would help balance that), but the DC boost might well be worth it.

John

 

[satori01]

Actually, I just had a cool idea. You know how a low Charisma results in poor Intimidation skills? There you go. Let the fire genasi use his Charisma penalty as a bonus in regards to spellcasting. Damn. I like the sound of that!

hmm let me think about that..... err NO.

It deviates too much from standard rules. The spell casting attributes are pretty much set in stone, and make a logical sense.
A negative modifer is a negative modifier and makes a logical sense. This would lead to the confussion of old AC rules.

"wait you mean my +3 chainmail make my AC better by making it a negative while this cursed -2 shield makes my AC worse by adding positive bonuses to my AC"

The Kir Lanans are a bad example as one could argue that they are a poorly conceived race in an optional book that will probably never be made OGC. The Kir Lanans are an exceptional case where prohibitions are being made to keep true to the flavor of the race.

Gensai are simply put thematicaly poorly designed. Tieflings and Aasimar seem like they should, Angelicaly blessed or Fiendishly touched. Gensai are just cookie cutter pieced together. The Fire Gensai should just be redesigned.
As an aside it would be very easy to justify a cha bonus for fire gensai, after all what other of the classic four elements has so captured Humanities imagination. Not very many people have an obsession with dirt clods, but a whole hell of a lot like playing with fire.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Concerning the feats in Races of Fareun having to be rebalanced for any lowering of ECL I couldnt disagree more. First off the idea of designing good feats to address the poor design of crappy ECL races is a sickening concept to me. Hmm this race is gimped so lets give him a Death Blow feat in an optional product to comensate. BLeh! If this was truly the designers intent than the employees of WOTC should be marched in the fields and shot with high caliber rifles,(farcical statement(tm)).

The feats are fine as are for any level imho, as they are limited in scope,(ie only particular races can take them), and one spends feats exploring one's hertiage that could be spent on nifty things like magic item creation, metamagic, combat feat etc. The cool factor outweighs any powergame factor, again imho.

That may be for some of the feats, but others are far too powerful for a regular feat. How about Outsider Wings? Unlimited flight is far more powerful than most feats, don't you think? The prerequisites are pretty low, too. Any Aasimar or Tiefling can take it at 6th level, as long as they've taken the preqrequisite feat Celestial or Fiendish Bloodline.

Outsider Wings is ridiculously powerful for most characters, and it's still questionable even for Aasimar and Tieflings.

 

[kreynolds]

Lemme just clarify my thinking when I say that a +4 to an attribute should automatically make that race a +2 ECL.

Thanks for the clarification. That helped a lot. I still disagree, but at least now I understand where you're coming from.