ECL of Planetouched races too High?

[satori01]

Wings are certainly powerful, but given that access to the fly spell is also available at that level,not overly powerful.

As a DM I certainly do think I can "handle" a player that spent 2 feats and chose to explore his characters heritage. Again from a design stand point it doesnt really change that much as wizards, sorcerers, and clerics with the travel domain can possibly have fly,(with 50 minutes duration miniumum). Sure pit traps without covers and large crevases wont be much of a problem for the character but by 6th level it isnt much of a problem for anyone anyway.

Also wings have a whole host of problems attacthed to them:
custom armor/ clothes
Yokels saying we dont take kindly to demons/angels in this town boy etc etc.

Again powefull yes, but the cool factor imho can justify it.

 

[kreynolds]

So apply the 8 from a standard array to Chr, take the penalty, put the good rolls in the other slots and be rewarded for it?

Yup. It would be just like having a 16 charimsa, but only in regards to spellcasting. It's high, but not too high, not even for 1st level.

I think the aformentioned Spellcasting Prodigy is a better way to go.

That could work too. Offsets the -2 well enough.

Similarly, what if the fire genasi not only got +1 to saves vs. fire, but gained a +2DC to fire-based spells that they cast?

If I went with spellcasting prodigy, that would be a nice one to go with it. Good idea.

They might not get more spells (though the Spellcasting Prodigy would help balance that), but the DC boost might well be worth it.

Well, it would definately keep them from losing spells, and that works for me.

 

[kreynolds]

It deviates too much from standard rules.

Like the ability to take a 5-foot step with a whirlwind or to threaten an area with a ranged weapon? Again, class abilities already deviate from the rules, some more so than others. That's the whole point. They wouldn't be interesting otherwise.

A negative modifer is a negative modifier and makes a logical sense.

Except in the case of intimidate, where some designers have actually said, "Oops. Didn't think about that."

"wait you mean my +3 chainmail make my AC better by making it a negative while this cursed -2 shield makes my AC worse by adding positive bonuses to my AC"

Man, I really hate 2e.

The Kir Lanans are a bad example as one could argue that they are a poorly conceived race...

Never seen a decent one though, except for aesthetic arguments. Actually, the only thing I think is poorly conceived about the Kir-Lanan is their rediculously high ECL. I still only peg them at a 4, at best. Also, after playtesting it, I'm confident that I'm right.

...in an optional book that will probably never be made OGC.

Uhh...what in the world does OGC have to do with any of this? Would you mind clarifying how this is relevant?

The Kir Lanans are an exceptional case where prohibitions are being made to keep true to the flavor of the race.

Like the monk adding their Wisdom bonus to AC. Same thing. Breaking or bending the rules to keep the flavor.

As an aside it would be very easy to justify a cha bonus for fire gensai...

Not for me. Fire Genasi are just too angry.

 

[kreynolds]

First off the idea of designing good feats to address the poor design of crappy ECL races is a sickening concept to me.

So looking at the poor genasi and those cool feats must really make you sick then.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Wings are certainly powerful, but given that access to the fly spell is also available at that level,not overly powerful.

As a DM I certainly do think I can "handle" a player that spent 2 feats and chose to explore his characters heritage. Again from a design stand point it doesnt really change that much as wizards, sorcerers, and clerics with the travel domain can possibly have fly,(with 50 minutes duration miniumum). Sure pit traps without covers and large crevases wont be much of a problem for the character but by 6th level it isnt much of a problem for anyone anyway.

Also wings have a whole host of problems attacthed to them:
custom armor/ clothes
Yokels saying we dont take kindly to demons/angels in this town boy etc etc.

Again powefull yes, but the cool factor imho can justify it.

Wings aren't broken at that level, no, but they're far too powerful to get so cheap. The prerequisites are ridiculously low. Celestial Bloodline is a decent feat on its own, and Protection from Evil is one of those rare low-level spells that remains very usefu at high levels.

And it's not just the ability to fly. It's unlimited flight. For a sixth level Wizard or Sorcerer, the Fly spell is one of their most powerful abilities. The Aasimar can do it all day long, as much as they want.

Your argument was that the outsider feats are balanced on their own. I disagree. However, when you consider the costs they've also paid as a native outsider, then it's more balanced IMHO.

 

[satori01]

kreynolds,I think you might have fallen victum to the Pet Monkey Condudrum. The Condudrum is as follows: You have this pet monkey that you have raised since it's infancy and because of that reason you are rather fond of this monkey. Unfortunately this monkey has a few kinks, like flining poo, and drinking all the beer in the fridge and leaving the toliet seat up, and having fleas and generally not the best fit for a civilized lifestyle. (Like most roomates alas) Unfortunately due to said attatchment to the Monkey, you alas are very reluctant to remove its influence in your life for a more appropriate fit.
(btw the secret password is "Alas")

Alas, Kreynolds the fire gensai might, just might be your Monkey
Do you really believe that any of the top flight D20 designers out there; Monte, Andy, Sean, etc would look at the negative charisma equal a positivie and say "by Jove tis brillant" in a Monty Python sounding voice.

I like your posts, I think you have an exceptional handle on ECL matters, but this proposed solution lacks Elegance.
I mean elegance in mathmatecial terms,(proper spelling btw is not included in this post send $3.99 to teach Satori01 how to spell at ...). Your solution can work, like many possible solutions but it causes quite a few problems, and isnt the most natural fit.

I think you know this deep down, but after all it is your monkey, come on Kreynolds get the monkey off your back, come on kick the monkey, we know you can, we know you want to Kick the monkey....

 

[kreynolds]

Alas, Kreynolds the fire gensai might, just might be your Monkey

Not at all, and for one very good reason...I've known this to be a problem long before I ever played one, or even wanted to, for that matter. I'm very careful about ECL modifiers, as most of them tend to be rather bloated.

Do you really believe that any of the top flight D20 designers out there; Monte, Andy, Sean, etc would look at the negative charisma equal a positivie and say "by Jove tis brillant" in a Monty Python sounding voice.

No. Nobody has successfully reproduced the Monty Python sounding voice, IMO.

But would they say it anyway, without the voice? I don't know. It also depends on who you ask. Monte and I don't exactly see eye to eye on much. Who knows.

I like your posts, I think you have an exceptional handle on ECL matters, but this proposed solution lacks Elegance.

I don't think it does. Suffering a penalty to Intimidate because your Charisma score is low, which could mean you are far more gruff and unlikeable than most people, lacks elegance.

I mean elegance in mathmatecial terms...

If a player can't handle the simplicity of taking a "-" and turning it into a "+" for one class feature, I don't need them at my table anyway. It's sheer simplicity is what makes it elegant to me.

Your solution can work, like many possible solutions but it causes quite a few problems....

Such as?

I think you know this deep down...

Not in the slightest.

...but after all it is your monkey, come on Kreynolds get the monkey off your back, come on kick the monkey, we know you can, we know you want to Kick the monkey....

And now for the Sage-like reply...drum roll please...See first answer.

 

[satori01]

A positive enhancement bonus effectively hurting your spellcasting ability for one. That is what I meant by elegance, your mechansim,(please send $3.99 to teach satori01 to spell...), is at odds with the rest of the system.

Intimidate is not the best supporting arguement as using a suboptimal rule set to support another proppsed rule set is like using Stalinist Russia to support a human rights record.
To use another inappropriate metaphor....

Hey, if you like it, thats fine, have fun storming the castle and all.

 

[Greybar]

Chun-Tzu

And it's not just the ability to fly. It's unlimited flight. For a sixth level Wizard or Sorcerer, the Fly spell is one of their most powerful abilities. The Aasimar can do it all day long, as much as they want.

Yes and No.

Fly 90' with perfect manuverability?
I would guess not, though I don't have the book. It's the really high movement rate of fly that really impacts my game, I've noticed.

I'll suggest again that the ability to do something for 50 minutes is pretty much the same as being able to do it all day for the purposes of impact on game balance.

However, the 5th+ level caster loses a 3rd level slot for Fly, so that is significant - and has to prep for it or spend a precious Sorcerer know-slot on it.

While fly will get you past a lot of problems and open a lot of tactic capabilities, it isn't a game breaker. Hmm... how much does an item with fly cost in comparison with an 6th level characters standard equipment?

John

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Boots of Flying cost 12,000 gp
Broom of Flying costs 15,100 gp
Carpets of Flying cost between 18,000 and 53,000 gp (depending on size)
Cloak of the Bat costs 24,000 gp
Obsidian Steed costs 28,500 gp
Wings of Flying cost 22,000 gp
Ring of Air Elemental Command costs 200,000 gp
Celestial Armor costs 25,300 gp
Winged Shield costs 15,159 gp

That seems to be a fairly exhaustive list of standard magic items which allow you to fly or do some close approximation of flying, based on searching the SRD for the word "fly." I may have missed something, of course.

I have no idea how much money a 6th level character is supposed to get.