ECL of Planetouched races too High?

[Staffan]

I'd worry a bit about outsiders becoming far more common than they already are, with an ECL 0. They seem popular enough with ECL +1, even if it's not worth the level adjustment. The powers that Genasi, Aasimar, and Tieflings get are sexier than the human's plain old bonus feat and extra skill points. It would be more like 1E and 2E, where human PCs are uncommon, and everyone's a demihuman. Of course, for some campaigns, that's perfectly fine.

That's why I said I might do it if I was running a Planescape-style campaign, where planetouched and other weirdnesses are relatively common.

Originally posted by kreynolds
To address the weakness of the genasi, I've actually thought about beefing up their spell-like abilities just a little, like adding lesser fire orb once per day. A melee touch attack version of a fire variant of ray of frost. Stuff like that.

One of the easy things to do about genasi would be to get rid of their Charisma penalty. That would also make them better sorcerers, and I think sorcerers with an elemental heritage are immensely cool.

 

[Technik4]

How would you feel about the genasi if their -2 Cha was switched to a +2 Cha (for air genasi I would make it a 0 Cha modifier).

Technik

 

[kreynolds]

How would you feel about the genasi if their -2 Cha was switched to a +2 Cha (for air genasi I would make it a 0 Cha modifier).

I think it would bring them closer to +1, but not enough. It would be a step in the right direction though...sort of. For fire genasi, it really wouldn't be a step in the right direction, at least not in the case of Charisma. Fire genasi have bad tempers, are quick to anger, and in comparison to earth, air, and water genasi, fire genasi are pretty frickin' wicked looking.

 

[Benben]

Genasi have more non-attribute benefits (a level-scalar resistance, a special power or ability, etc).

I have two problems with the spell like effects:

1) They are capped at a caster level of 5th. This is okay at low levels, but frustrating at high levels.

2) They are unbalanced in respect to each other. Creat Water is a cantrip and levitate is a 2nd level spell.

The bonus to saves is a marginal bonus. Just how many earth related saving throws are there? Earthquake is the only spell that comes to mind. Fire genasi will certainly be using this more often that the others.

The diety restriction for Genasi clerics is a frustrating restriction for character development and design, and I consider it a serious weakness for the race.

Of the genasi I think only the Air genasi are worth the +1 ECL. The breathless ability is cool as is levitation.

Earth Genasi have to be +1 ECL only because they would intrude too much on the Half-Orc population if Earth Genasi were +0 ECL.

In a pirate campaign or one with frequent boat rides, water genasi are worth +1 ECL. However if compared to the Dwarfs, who have identical attribute modifications, then they are about equal.

Fire Genasi, rate just above Half-Elves in my opinion. Fire Genasi have a weak spell like ability, and uninteresting attribute modifications.

 

[Technik4]

Ok, breaking them down to be on par with Aasimar. All spell-like abilities are cast at character's level. All the stat modifiers are balanced at +2 positive and each genasi has one additional ability and one additional resistance.

Air Genasi
+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis
Levitate, Breathless, +1 vs air spells and effects, Electricity Resistance 5
Has the feat "Rapid Flying" when flying (+20 flight speed)

Earth Genasi
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis
Pass Without Trace, Stun Immunity, +1 vs earth spells and effects, Acid Resistance 5
Is considered a Large Creature with respect to grappling and tripping
+2 Concentration and Survival

Fire Genasi
+4 Int, -2 Cha
Control Flame, +1 vs fire spells and effects, Fire Resistance 5
Fire Genasi Sorcerors may use their Int instead of their Cha.
+2 Intimidate

Water Genasi
-2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha
Create Water, Breathe Water, Swim Speed 30 ft, +1 bonus vs water spells and effects, Cold Resistance 5
+4 Swim

Tiefling
+2 Int, -2 Wis, +2 Cha (This is more representative of the Planescape Tiefling from 2e)
Darkness, Cold Resistance 5, Fire Resistance 5, Electricity 5
+2 Bluff and Hide

Well, what do you think?

Technik

 

[Staffan]

Fire Genasi Sorcerors may use their Int instead of their Cha.

Most of the post looks good at a quick glance, except this. Using different abilities for spellcasting sets a bad precedent. I'd much rather see something like getting the Spellcasting Prodigy for free, limited to sorcerers.

Someone else mentioned that fire genasi shouldn't have a Cha bonus on account of "hav[ing] bad tempers, [being] quick to anger, and in comparison to earth, air, and water genasi, fire genasi are pretty frickin' wicked looking." Charisma has nothing to do with looks - just look at the Charisma of a ghoul. To me, the things mentioned indicate a strong personality which might be interpreted as good, or at least not *bad* Charisma.

 

[Murrdox]

NO +1 ECL race should get a +4 to ANY attribute, no matter what the penalty is.

In my mind, a +4 to an attribute automatically makes it a +2 ECL.

 

[kreynolds]

In my mind, a +4 to an attribute automatically makes it a +2 ECL.

And if it adds to an already crappy stat? Just imagine for once, and I know this idea is wild, wacky, crazy, totally off the wall and deserving of a public execution for speaking such blasphemy, but imagine that a player actually has a low stat, like a 7, where that +4 is gonna go, instead of already having an 18...

...you know, I forgot where I was going with this.

Bah!

Anyways, with that worthless rant of mine aside (its a weird morning for me, so if want to ignore that mess, be my guest ), I'll just say that there's no way I could equate +4 to any stat to two full character levels. I think a lot of people have a tendancy to forget how much stuff you get with a class level...hit die, skill points, character level feat progression, character level ability points, character wealth, varying combinations of improving or rapidly improving saving throws, a rising base attack bonus...and to add to the list of possibles, sneak attack, uncanny dodge, bonus feats, spells, spells, spells, more spells, even more spells, virtual feats, ability score increases, combat bonuses, defense bonuses, etc, etc, etc.

Now, when I look at two level's worth of stuff...which is this right here...

hit die, skill points, character level feat progression, character level ability points, character wealth, varying combinations of improving or rapidly improving saving throws, a rising base attack bonus, sneak attack

hit die, skill points, character level feat progression, character level ability points, character wealth, varying combinations of improving or rapidly improving saving throws, a rising base attack bonus, uncanny dodge

...there's no way that a +4 to an ability score is worth all that. No way at all.

 

[kreynolds]

Using different abilities for spellcasting sets a bad precedent.

You mean like the precedent that undead already set with Con driven abilities? What about a monks Wisdom to AC? Or are you referring to something else?

 

[Caliber]

You mean like the precedent that undead already set with Con driven abilities? What about a monks Wisdom to AC? Or are you referring to something else?

While its one thing to say those of type [Undead] use Cha for Con is completely different from saying Fire Gensai (and Fire Gensai alone) use Wis for Sorceror spells and not Cha.

Its just too specific, and 2E-ish (a seperate subsystem for EVERYTHING)

Although I do agree a Fire Gensai Sorceror is a great concept, and one I've thought about before.

I love the Gensai races but they're all +1 ECL but not really worth it (ok, maybe Air) so I've never played one. Supposedly Races of Faerun has some nice stuff so I need to check it out ...

(err ... I rambled there a little huh?)