Edition War Across the Net or Where Have You Been?

[carmachu]

The fact that pathfinder is becoming reality has alleviated alot of the edition wars.

WOTC did not help the edition wars much by stating right off the bat that 3rd edition was flawed and 4e was going to fix everything. If you were still playing 3rd you were playing the wrong game.

Alot of the ire was due to a perfectly good, and viable game no longer being supported. Especially since it is impossible to prove that 4e is better than 3rd edition.

Now the 3rd edition in a new incarnation will be supported by pathfinder. This makes it very easy to never look back at a D&D product, so for many alot of the frustration is gone.

You should also add the GSL debacle which really didnt help things at all. Even with the new revised version.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I agree, but why do you find it odd?

As I said: 'some might say'. I've read some posts here and there that imply that this is the worst site for whatever reason (generally a grudge, as far as I can tell), and some other folks just get a bit snarky about it, including re: 3e/4e issues, old school issues, and so on.

But anyway, regardless of those perspectives, wherever they might be seen, the rest of what I said is what I've found to be true.

 

[CleverNickName]

Not to be a wet blanket, guys, but the OP asked us not to discuss the edition war itself...only the places where the edition war has been observed.

/just sayin'

 

[deadsmurf]

On speed of releases by edition

Some were asking about how fast the various editions have been releasing, and I decided to check that out.
Methodology: I went to Dungeons & Dragons and looked for "adventure" and "accessory" products, ignored "core game" products, and removed any "accessory" that isn't either a softcover or hardcover book. Adventures could be either.
I looked at each edition from its starting point, either the release of the core books, or if there was a preceding adventure, that month, and looked at the next 12 months. If first book wasn't a core game book it counted to total. (I'm not 100% certain the sunless citadel came out first, as the core 3.0 books are no longer listed in the porduct guide and I couldn't find the date elsewhere on the internet, so I decided the adventure came first)
I also looked at intervening periods, one the editions got 'into the swing of things' to see if there was an increase in production levels.

3.0 - 08/2000 to 08/2001
Starting with the sunless citadel
Adventures - 6
Hardcovers/Softcovers - 9
Total non-core books in first year: 15

(3.0 in mid lifecycle) 05/2002 to 05/2003
Stronghold Builder's Guidebook
Adventures - 1
Hardcovers/Softcovers - 12
Total non-core books in year: 13

3.5 - 07/2003 to 07/2004
Starting with PHB/DMG/MM
Adventures - 1
Hardcovers - 13
Total non-core books in first year: 14

(3.5 in the swing of things - mid edition) 08/2006 to 08/2007
Starting with Tome of Battle & Dragons of Faerun
Adventures - 9
Hardcovers - 18
Total non-core books in year: 27

4.0 05/2008 to 05/2009
Starting with H1 Keep on the Shadowfell
Adventures - 8
Hardcovers - 12
Total non-core books in first year: 20


Analysis: 4th edition has indeed bumped up production of books from the begining of 3.0 through the first year of 3.5, where WotC was putting out approximately 14 books a year. Of note, the 3.0 books tended to be short (the original splat books) and less expensive. 4th edition has actually dropped the number of books in comparison to the 06/07 period (at least) of 3.5, and that period saw an increase in both short and long adventures, and a increased number of hardcovers too.

So people who feel books are coming out too fast are right in comparion the launches of 3.0 and 3.5, with the caveat that the people who feel they are coming about right, likely are comparing it to the general lifecycle releases of 3.5, not the launch.

 

[jdrakeh]

There would be a way to figure this out, by looking at release dates. But through the life of 3.5E (to the best of my knowledge) there were on DMG, two Players handbooks, and five or six Monster Manuals.

If you consider core books only for 3.5, there were two DMGs, two PHBs, and five monster manuals released during a roughly three year period. For D&D 4e you currently have one DMG, two PHBs, and two Monster Manuals.

Please, I find your tone in this post and your previous one toward me insulting. Let's try to keep this conversation on an adult level, No, I am not joking.

I'm puzzled how admitting that I was one of several hundreds of people throwing fits about incompatibility between AD&D and D&D 3.0 circa 2000 offends you. Honestly, no offense was intended in either post. I think you're reading things into both posts that aren't there.

While going from 2.0E to 3.0E may have been the biggest change to date, going from 3.5E to 4.0E, IMVHO, has been a bigger change.

Well, you really can't have it both ways.

 

[jdrakeh]

4th edition has indeed bumped up production of books from the begining of 3.0 through the first year of 3.5, where WotC was putting out approximately 14 books a year.

I think we were talking about core rule books only based on what Hereticus posted, so you should discount adventure modules, campaign settings, etc to generate a total in the context of the ongoing discussion.

 

[rounser]

Oddly, implementing new rules means needing to buy new rule books. It was true with every older edition of D&D, as well.

Not exactly.

You can play a game using [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Rules-Cyclopedia-Allston/dp/1560760850"]this[/ame] for a campaign with or without any combination of weapon mastery, skills, level limits, optional classes, wargame resolution, dominion rulership, nonlethal combat, THAC0, death or dying conditions, ability checks, saving throw bonuses etc., and then one with. All these rules are explicitly spelled out as optional, and alternative rules to use instead are spelled out as well (yes, even for level limits).

So it is possible to get off the D&D consumer treadmill if you want to, and still play with new rules.

 

[avin]

I have seen DDM edition wars in forums such as Hordelings, Maxminis and DDMspoilers. To a lesser extent there's D&D edition wars over there too.

 

[resistor]

I know that there was some serious edition warring on the Paizo boards, but I rarely go to the parts where they occur.

RPGnet is interesting in that there doesn't seem to be much edition warring most of the time, primarily because the readership seems to be overwhelmingly pro-4e. When an occasional 3e-related thread comes up (say, the recent ones about the Pathfinder previews), they're absolutely dogpiled by pre-4e/anti-3e posts.

Honestly, I found ENWorld pretty intolerable for most of last summer/fall, and pretty much stopped coming here for a few months. Beyond simple edition warring, it seemed like all 3e posts got moved from "General" into "3e Rules", which seemed like a virtual ghetto where nobody ever posted.

 

[Jack99]

4.0E is a change from 3.5E... and some people naturally resist change.

But I found that to be false - People mostly resist change they have no control over. I base that on my years of work experience implementing quality systems based on crap good stuff like ISO-9000.

[sarcasm]I know that if WotC had done the right thing and consulted me about my issues of importance, that 4.0E would have been a much better product.[/sarcasm]

My biggest complaint about 4.0E is all the new books that will need to be bought. If I or someone else complains because you can't do X anymore, an edition sage will proudly proclaim that Yes You Can!, it's in the Forgotten Compendium of Martial Control semi-core handbook that just came out. To keep up with the edition sages, I will need to buy a dozen books for three to four years, until 4.5E comes out to fix the problems in 4.0E.

First of all, there is no such thing as 4.0. Its called 4e. Also, if you think the books are too expensive, a good deal is the compendium. For the price of a few books a year, you get access to all of them, or rather, at least the crunch which lets you stay on top of what the players can do, assuming you allow things.