[EDITION WARZ] Selling Out D&D's Soul?

[MerricB]

Actually, I'm thinking that if the high-powered magic items being so powerful is a problem, then what's needed is to up the time costs for making them. Instead of 1,000 gp a day (+3 sword in 18 days, +5 sword in 50 days) you could do something like square the result - something along the lines of a +3 sword in 162 days or a +5 sword in 2,500 days (or about 8 years). That would reduce the chance of a walking commission for god-killing weapons while still allowing the wizards to make use of their Scribe Scroll feat. (That said, 8 years sounds a little high for the +5 weapon...)

If you have PC wizards making +5 or better weapons, then it's going to slow down the campaign to a more reasonable speed than I've noted in either AD&D or D&D.

If a PC can drop 50,000 gp to commission a +5 weapon, what level is he?

Cheers!

 

[Ourph]

No need to houserule. The mage working on order isn't churning them out 24/7. He might have other orders, or he might need a pause to work up the exp.

Placing flavor obstacles in the way of getting an item isn't any different than making a houserule that does the same thing mechanically. Either way, the DM is forcing the players into a "mother-may-I" situation.

 

[Lanefan]

If you have PC wizards making +5 or better weapons, then it's going to slow down the campaign to a more reasonable speed than I've noted in either AD&D or D&D.

I just don't see this as what PC's do. PC's adventure, they fight things, they Do Deeds, and they find neat stuff...that someone else made! A PC's place is in the field, not the item-construction shop.

If a PC wizard wants to spend time building items rather than adventuring, then fine; as long as the player knows the PC is going to miss the next several adventures while so engaged, and that none of time, levels, or the activities of the rest of the world are going to stop and wait till she's done.

This, in fact, might hearken back to the start of this enormous thread: the soul of the game. I suggest the game's soul resides in the field-adventuring party, and things like this sitting around waiting for the wizard to build items is rather soulless.

Lane-"how many other 1000-post threads have there been?"-fan

 

[Thurbane]

Placing flavor obstacles in the way of getting an item isn't any different than making a houserule that does the same thing mechanically. Either way, the DM is forcing the players into a "mother-may-I" situation.

What??? Not having an NPC mage just bumming around, idle, waiting for a PC to place an order for an item, is considered "Mother may I?"...holy crap, and people think my feeling that player entitlement is at an all time high is misplaced...

 

[Lanefan]

Placing flavor obstacles in the way of getting an item isn't any different than making a houserule that does the same thing mechanically. Either way, the DM is forcing the players into a "mother-may-I" situation.

What's all this with the mother-may-I stuff, said as if it's the Worst Possible Thing In Gaming? Players and their PC's are not entitled to have the game provide them any items they want, whether by adventure treasury, store buy, or commission build; yet the tone of the mother-may-I complaints would seem to suggest that they are. Same goes for feats, non-core supplements, and so on...it's the DM's call, people. Always has been.

Lanefan

 

[Papewaio of The Org]

If a PC wizard wants to spend time building items rather than adventuring, then fine; as long as the player knows the PC is going to miss the next several adventures while so engaged, and that none of time, levels, or the activities of the rest of the world are going to stop and wait till she's done.

Or the time between adventures is spent on creating items. At least that way characters will age more then 3 days between leveling up, 60 days from first to twenty is a bit quick. Add in some time to make items and such (which is just an accounting process to add a bit of time to the age of the characters) and you end up with a slightly more realistic progression. More flavour and you still actually spend the game time focus on adventuring.

 

[Glyfair]

What's all this with the mother-may-I stuff, said as if it's the Worst Possible Thing In Gaming?

I think the "mother-may-I" complaints have morphed from the original problem referred to.

The "mother-may-I" issue is when a character has an ability that only works based on an on-the-fly decision by the DM. It usually also requires the character to try to use the ability before he has any idea whether it will work. It also usually will have widely variable responses from different DMs.

For example, say a player is playing OD&D and wants to try to disarm their opponent they are fighting. There are no rules about that in OD&D (and if there are, for this example say there aren't), so it requires the DM to decide whether it's possible. If it is, he has to decide how difficult it is, and how he will resolve it.

Possible responses (based on various styles I've seen in other situations):

"No way that will work. He's a trained fighter and no experienced trained fighter would allow himself to be disarmed."

"That seems stylish, make an attack at -2 and if ylou succeed it works."

"OK, make an attack roll against the opponent, with modifiers for the smaller size of the sword. Good, you hit the sword. Now, make a Dex roll to try to catch it the right way. Good, now make a Str check vs. his Str check to hold it. Good, it's in the air. Now he gets a Dex check to catch it before it hits the ground."

The problem is compounded if it requires the character to committ to it before he even knows how likely it is to succeed or how the DM willl adjudicate it. Maybe the weapon in the above example is the MacGuffin the players need, and the character has to put himself in a near suicidal position is the maneuver fails. Imagine doing this with the DM with the exaggerated idea of a trained fighter's skills.

That's the "mother-may-I" situation that's mostly been complained about, not "can I find someone to make this magic item."

 

[Thurbane]

What's all this with the mother-may-I stuff, said as if it's the Worst Possible Thing In Gaming? Players and their PC's are not entitled to have the game provide them any items they want, whether by adventure treasury, store buy, or commission build; yet the tone of the mother-may-I complaints would seem to suggest that they are. Same goes for feats, non-core supplements, and so on...it's the DM's call, people. Always has been.

Lanefan

Comments like that will get you blackballed with some folks around here!

Heaven forbid the DM have some control in his game...

 

[I'm A Banana]

The "mother-may-I" issue is when a character has an ability that only works based on an on-the-fly decision by the DM. It usually also requires the character to try to use the ability before he has any idea whether it will work. It also usually will have widely variable responses from different DMs.

Agreed. "Mother-may-I" is what happens when a PC has an ability and it's actually the DM who uses it, rather than giving a player control of his own abilities.

Placing flavor obstacles in the way of getting an item isn't any different than making a houserule that does the same thing mechanically. Either way, the DM is forcing the players into a "mother-may-I" situation.

I don't think this is a "mother-may-I" situation. The world, including the NPC's and treasure, is the DM's purview. The DM has control over the rescources the party acquires, and she should, it's one of the ways she can manipulate the feel of the campaign, the difficulty of encounters, and the nature of the setting. You should be asking the DM for permission for acquiring your specialty magic items.

 

[Numion]

Placing flavor obstacles in the way of getting an item isn't any different than making a houserule that does the same thing mechanically. Either way, the DM is forcing the players into a "mother-may-I" situation.

No, that just isn't so. They have different effects on the game. Changing the item creation rule means that they can never get any item they need custom made faster. DM deciding what the NPC mage does with his time is just the ordinary business of running the game. Meta-game versus in-game. You have a very simplistic view of the game.

For example, changing the rule does not include any adventure hooks. The second option does - the negotiation with the NPC mage. "Say .. if we solve this problem of yours and torch your competitors laboratory, would that make the Dinner Plate of Low Carbs come any faster?"