[EDITION WARZ] Selling Out D&D's Soul?

[BroccoliRage]

d02 know no limit!


Actually, I agree that D&D3e is not D&D anymore. It's still a a game with it's own merits and drawbacks, but one of the nice things about all the older editions is that with minimal effort they can all be run simultaneously. I've been doing it for years.

WOTC is selling a new and different game under the same name. That isn't good or bad, it's just irrelevant to me. I've sat as a player in 3e games, and had a reasonably good time, but I would really hate to run it. I think I frustrated my fellow players by not relying on my feats or skills or whatever, though. Oh well, it was all just arbitrary writing on a peice of paper to me. That's how it is when I play games I'm not familiar with.

There is no "soul" of D&D, that's not the nature of the beast. The game is just a game, an amusing diversion. What edition you use relies largely on personal taste.

 

[Henry]

Maybe it's not the "soul of the game" that's changed, it's "the soul of the players."

As many have opined before, the focus on DM control has changed (some say for the better, some say for the worse, depends on the player's favorite RPG style). The default assumptions of the player base has changed a bit, to a more egalitarian assumption, that rules should all be balanced so that all choices are mechanically valid, that the players have more freedom on choices of race, class, character abilities, and spells, and that the DM has a limit on his authority during play. As I said before, it's gone from, "that DM rule makes no sense," to "the rules don't say that." From, "my character is cool because of Bob's house rules," to "my character is cool because of the rules options."

(There will always be, "My character is cool because of how I play him," but that was true regardless of rules set.)

 

[kroh]

I would think that the spirit of the game is in its classes. IMO, If I want to run a game where the Characters are well thought out, with clever backgrounds, a twisted and fun selection of abilities, and the flaws that draw and enhance the experience of the characters, I don't use the D&D system. If I want to get character generation out of the way "quickly" and the players don't care how the characters advance as long as they do... Then D&D it is.

Regards,
Walt

 

[Kormydigar]

To me, the new vs. old debate has less to do with soul, than freedom. The soul (or lack thereof) is driven by the players and GM and not the rules. There is a difference in the feel of freedom in the new rulesets. I know that one can ignore anything that is undesirable from any set of rules but, that's not the point. The newer rules seem to be driven by limitations rather than imagination. To illustrate the shift in mindset lets look at the evolution of gaming for a bit.

During the early days of RPG's, there were many situations the rules didn't cover. The GM and players were expected to fill those gaps with what worked for thier group. At this time video and computer games were quite primitive and couldn't simulate an RPG very well at all. As time went on, computer games gained popularity and made great strides in simulating RPG type play. Video games became heavily influenced by tabletop style RPGs. The games got good- real good, but they were (and still are) limited by the programmers code. There are no permissible actions that are not forssen ( and written) by the code writers.

I think we are seeing a shift of influence these days. For the first time we now have D&D players with lots of computer gaming experience coming to the tabletop for the first time. Because of this reverse influence of computer to tabletop we see the effects on the feel of the rulesets. Rules to cover every type of action, parameters set up to restrict the AI (DM) and generally contain the game to " inside the box".

This type of ruleset can easily be overcome by any group that wants to disregard what they don't want, but the feel remains. The popularity of the new rules is a strong indication that a lot of players are more comfortable with the " predefined parameters" style of rules because they got used to them electronically before ever trying tabletop play. OK I have rambled long enough.........blast away

 

[BroccoliRage]

Well said, Kormy!

 

[KenSeg]

First off, good comments from Henry and Kormydigar.

I do think that the "soul" of the player has changed and that this is being reflected in the mechanics of the game. I believe that the biggest difference between the old-school and newer players is our imaginative background. This is what affects the "soul" of our play.

Those players in the late 70s through the 90s took our imaginative background from literature, specifically sword and sorcery novels and fantasy. I can easily say that I have read well over several thousand books in the genre and have this deep well of fantasy background in my playing and DMing. D&D for us was a way to live out the fantasy stories that we read as children and adults and I do believe that our emphasis on the character background and roleplaying is a result of this environment.

I believe that a majority of the gamers today have a computer imaginative background, coming from games such as WOW, DOC, Everquest and such. The plots and stories in these games are poor substitutes to the wealth of drama included in literature and gives the game a more shallow feeling with emphasis on crunch instead of story. I wish that today's children would take the time to enjoy reading more instead of spending endless hours infront of the computer screen. There is a universe of ideas, plots and characters out there for you to discover. I think that you will find the investment well worth your time and will find that it lends depth and color to your gaming.

-KenSeg
-gaming since 1978

 

[diaglo]

Those players in the late 70s through the 90s took our imaginative background from literature,...

i took mine from wargames and lets pretend.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Okay, here's something to help get at the core of this a bit more.

It has been said that the new edition is not "D&D", that it's a different game.

What has the new edition lost that the other edition(s) retained? When does D&D stop being D&D and start being just an RPG with the brand tacked on? What elements of "D&D" must be retained for it to be D&D?

Why isn't this edition good enough?

And, the corrollary to that, are those defining elements of D&D worth preserving? Are they valuable to more than nostalgia and message board bickering? Is the new edition somehow BETTER because it is different?

 

[FireLance]

First off, good comments from Henry and Kormydigar.

Ditto.

Those players in the late 70s through the 90s took our imaginative background from literature, specifically sword and sorcery novels and fantasy.

I admit to a certain amount of sword and sorcery novels and fantasy in my imaginative background, in particular, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, the Narnia series, The Chronicles of Prydain, The Wizard of Earthsea trilogy (it was a trilogy then), the Shannara trilogy (ditto), and the Dark is Rising series.

However, these were not the only influences. I also read a lot of science fiction (especially Asimov), watched a lot of cartoons such as Visionaries, Transformers, G-Force, Galaxy Rangers, M.A.S.K. and Superfriends, watched many Chinese martial arts television serials, watched movies such as Star Wars and Superman, and read various superhero comics. I also read Choose Your Own Adventure books and Fighting Fantasy gamebooks and played computer games such as Wizardry and Ultima, and contrary to Kormydigar's analysis, I got into tabletop gaming because I felt frustrated and restricted by the limited options available to me in a gamebook or a computer game.

I do think that computer games have influenced D&D and other table-top games in one way, though. PCs have become less "disposible" over the years. I posted the following in the recent thread on point buy:

In a way, I believe that RPGs have changed in much the same way that computer games have changed. The first computer games had pretty much disposable characters, such as the pellet-guzzling PacMan or the laser platform in Space Invaders. You got caught, or hit, you died, and you started over. Every once in while, you'd get a really good run, and it was immortalized as a "high score" that you'd brag about. Ironically, I think it was computer RPGs like Ultima, Wizardry, Bard's Tale and so on that introduced the idea of the non-disposable protagonist and a plot centered around him (or them).

I believe some of this thinking must have bled back into table-top RPGs because the majority of players I know don't want characters that are "disposible" any more. They have invested a lot in their characters, and want them to succeed and grow in power and influence.​

 

[FireLance]

It has been said that the new edition is not "D&D", that it's a different game.

You know what I say to that:

It's Still D&D To Me
(with apologies to Billy Joel)

What's the matter with the sword I'm swinging?
Can't you tell that it's too mundane?
Maybe I should buy some leather armor.
How much gold don't you have anyway?
Where have you been hidin' out lately, honey?
You can't fight monsters 'til you spend a lot of money.
Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new game
Funny, but it's still D&D to me.

What's the matter with the horse I'm riding?
Can't you tell that it's out of style?
Should I try to raise a baby griffon?
Yes you can, but it'll take a while.
Nowadays you can't be too sentimental,
Your best bet's a half-dragon half-elemental.
Pokemount, riding dog, half-celestial dire frog,
It's still D&D to me.

Oh, it doesn't matter what they say in the papers,
'Cause it's always been the same old scene.
There's a new game in town but you can't get the sound
From a story in a magazine
Aimed at your average teen.

How about a suite of stat boosting items
And a keen holy flaming burst lance?
You could be a really great hero baby,
If you just give it half a chance.
Don't waste your money on a rod of negation,
You get more mileage from a ring of protection.
Heavy shield, animated, heavy fort, mithril plate,
It's still D&D to me.

What's the matter with the class I'm playing?
Don't you know that it got the shaft?
Should I try to play a cleric/wizard?
If you do then you must be daft.
Don't you know about the new options honey?
You get to stack your saves and your base attack bonii.
It's the next phase, new wave, balanced play, anyways
It's still D&D to me.
Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new game
Funny, but it's still D&D to me.​