[EDITION WARZ] Selling Out D&D's Soul?

[MerricB]

And the problem isn't that the choices are available; the problem is that there aren't enough ways to get back on track if you don't plan for 20th level at 1st. A problem I solved for my home game.)

I think the rebuilding and retraining rules in PHB2 go a long way towards solving these problems.

Cheers!

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

What I learned from this thread:

If you assume that 1e AD&D creatures aren't allowed their save-or-die effects and attack in groups of 1, it takes them 2 rounds to kill a 10th level character.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Feats - UA Weapon specialisation; OA Martial Art Styles; OA Non Weapon Proficiencies, particularly Tracking, Iaijutsu; DSG NWP, particularly Blind-fighting, Endurance, Slow Respiration.

Stat Increases - Paladin and Cavalier.

Cheers!

That's what I thought. I'm not sure that I would count class abilities or NWP as feats.

RC

 

[DestroyYouAlot]

I agree, and that in itself is revealing. 3.x hates save-or-die so it's no wonder creatures do more damage; it's just a balancing factor after the initial nerfs.

I second this, with a change in emphasis - I was paging through MMII (1e) last night, trying to pick out monsters that didn't save-or-die right off the bat. (Deathwatch beetle? I mean, seriously, it's a clicking noise. That kills you. From a beetle. Ridiculous.) I'm not opposed to the concept, but there's a serious preponderance of these beasties in the 1e books (and, to a lesser extent, the 2e books), and most of them give little or no indication that they're going to just instantly kill you if you fail a save. (Which is, probably, and for whatever reason, vs. "wand" or "putrefication" or "getting hit by a city bus" or something arbitrary - but I kid. )

But let's be generous - lets give him an average 5.5 (6) hit points, plus a 15 CON, for a grand total of 7. Can anyone still not see an orc with his 1d8 battle axe not able to take this guy out in one round? To imagine such a character besting 5 orcs all by himself is somewhat of a strecth, at best.

From all of my personal experience, playing 1E, 2E and 3.5, I would say that an equivalent level 3.5 fighter could easily trounce his earlier edition cousins at any given level.

Not that these kind of comparisons are especially useful anyway...

I agree with you here, on both points, again with a change in emphasis - given the same numbers, Mr. 3e kills Mr. 1e and takes his stuff without too much trouble. Which is because they inhabit different statistical universes. Mr. 1e isn't fighting orc warriors who are doing 1d12+3 damage on a strike. (Never mind the 3d12+9 on a critical... *shudder*) Like you said, it's not a useful comparison, because the monsters and NPCs are enjoying most of the same advantages that the PCs are.

 

[Raven Crowking]

The Adventurers win!

Now, obviously I've left out the unique creatures and dragons. I've also used some rather High-Con PCs. I rather doubt any fighter of less than 15 Con is going to reach 10th level. 15 Con says "I have 62 hit points at level 10 on average." 16 Con gives 71 hp.

Cheers!

Brachiosaurus (100)
Hydra (by heads, ranges from 30 to 192, athough maxes out on 48 per character)
Pyrohydra (by heads, ranges from 30 to 120, without breath weapons, although maxes out on 40 per character)
Mammoth (76)

Average hit points for a 10th level fighter is 10 x 5.5 = 55 plus Con bonus x 10, say an additional 20 hp to be generous, for 75 hp.

I did allow the brachiosaurus to step on its victim (max damage 80), but otherwise ignored special attacks. In the case of the 1e carrion crawler, 6 attacks lead to 6 chances to be paralyzed. How long does that paralysis last?

In the case of energy drain monsters (max loss of 2 levels in AD&D 1e), hit point loss occurs from the level drain itself.

Add special abilities, and the 1e DM can make 10th level PCs drop like flies, if that is his goal. As can the 3e DM, really.

 

[thedungeondelver]

DSG NWP, particularly Blind-fighting, Endurance, Slow Respiration.

Gary has flat out stated that the DSG and WSG are 2e books despite what the cover says so I'm not entirely sure they're valid arguments against 1e, Merric.

 

[DestroyYouAlot]

Gary has flat out stated that the DSG and WSG are 2e books despite what the cover says so I'm not entirely sure they're valid arguments against 1e, Merric.

I'm not sure a "Gary said" argument holds much water, here - and it seems like the main driving force behind that statement is that he just didn't like them. (And can you really retroactively assign 2e status to books that came out before 2e existed? Moreover, that'd imply that the Manual of the Planes was "even more 2e" by chronology.) Besides, he didn't even work there anymore, he may not be the best authority for the issue.

 

[thedungeondelver]

That's an interesting side-point. Save or die effects. Although 3e has reduced their effectiveness (especially as regards poison!)

"reduced their effectiveness" = removed entirely. After all we can't offend the twinks! "What?! What do you mean my super duper ooper looper half titanium dragon/half baaatezzu dire warforged paladin sorcerer got killed by a snake?!"

The constant nerfifying of later edition D&D is there to protect bad players.

 

[thedungeondelver]

I'm not sure a "Gary said" argument holds much water, here

Too bad for you, then.

And he was working at TSR while the WSG and DSG were in development.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Now, obviously I've left out the unique creatures and dragons. I've also used some rather High-Con PCs.

Well at least this time you admit you skewed things to fit whatever anti 1e AD&D agenda you're pushing.