[EDITION WARZ] Selling Out D&D's Soul?

[thedungeondelver]

Other than a dragon, show me a creature in 1e that can drop a 10th level character from full hit points to dead in a single round.

Did...did you ever play 1e?

Can I just use the Monster Manual, to spare myself a lot of typing?!

 

[Henry]

You used individual initiative for large combats in 1e?

Heck yes, every since I first played with groups in 1E and 2E as early as the late 80's! (Back when I used to play Basic/Expert D&D in the early 80's, we barely played combats by the rules, and just switched turns). In fact, if I understood him right, even Gary used to do that, not even bothering with the 1E init system.

Originally, we used to roll, and we'd call out, "ones," "twos," "threes," "fours," etc. Now, we use init cards for cyclic, and its gotten so fast and second nature for us, we can't get the hang of going back to either writing it down each turn or calling out ones, twos, etc.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Most 1e groups use group initiative in my experience... DM rolls 2d6 (a white d6 for the players and a red d6 for the monsters, in my case) and play it like that.

Individual initiative seems to be used mostly by groups who are (understandably) confused by the 1e initiative rules and (incorrectly) apply DEX modifiers.

 

[MerricB]

Yeah, that really took myself and my group by surprise when we first switched from 2E to 3.5 - poison didn't kill outright any more. Took us all a bit of getting used to.

Although in these later days, I think the 3.5e poison DCs are a little too low - at least for spiders and the like - I revelled in the 3e poison when it first came back. Watching the rogue get reduced to 2 Strength whilst exploring an ancient ruin in the Sea of Dust was just too much fun.

I love the new effects of ability damage in 3e. Save or Die is scary whilst facing it, but then you fail the save and it's over. In 3e, you have to carry the Strength damage.

I've also found this to be the case. Back in 1E, we once had a group of TEN players and one DM, and the combat rounds took, on average, about the same amount of time that a round takes us in 3.5 with only FOUR players. Part of that is (was) us still learning the finer points of 3.5 combat, but then again quite a few of the ten 1E players we used to have were fairly new to AD&D.

Hmm. I may be exceptional as 3.5e DMs go, but combats really don't take me that long. If there's anything that makes 3e combats take longer it's the extra dice at high levels; mind you, one thing that can slow things down are special abilities. I enjoy the monsters in MMIV a lot because they have simple and effective special abilities. A lot of AD&D combats (as I recall) were against fairly vanilla monsters, which obviously run quicker.

I agree, and that in itself is revealing. 3.x hates save-or-die so it's no wonder creatures do more damage; it's just a balancing factor after the initial nerfs.

Not quite; more damage is meant to balance the increased hit points for the better Con and HD.

A big reason 3.x hates "save or die" is that once you get that ability, there's nowhere else to go. There's no level of ability above it. Well, I guess "save or die and you can't be resurrected", but that's it.

There are certainly enough "save or die" effects in the game, but they're not really interesting. A spider whose poison causes healing spells to harm, and inflict spells to heal... that's interesting. (Yes, it's in MM4, and I used it last session. Great fun!) You have the Bodak (Fort DC 15 or die!) and the Nightwalker (Fort DC 21 or die!) plus several other creatures...

The Drowned (MM3) have a nice variant on "save or die": you start drowning and die in 3 rounds. Ouch. Many a PC has died to those.

Oh, and don't mention the Shadow Dragon.

I think in comparing 1st level characters from various editions and the "Invincible 1E fighter" people are forgetting a major factor - there was no "max HP at 1st level" rule in 1E or 2E. True, many people used it as a houserule, but as far as I am aware, it never existed as an official rule. Add to that that you didn't start getting CON bonus hit points until your score was 15 or higher. It is now entirely possible to have a fighter with ONE hit point at first level.

In a recent nostalgia game I ran, there was a druid with 1 hit point. He didn't enjoy the experience.

Throw 19 orcs at a party of 2nd level 3.x characters and they're toast.

It should be noted that the tables in the DMG are balanced against a pretty high number of 1e PCs - 6-8 or so, I'd guess. (Note the NPC parties each have 9 members!) A party of 6 second-level 3.5e PCs should probably give a good account of themselves against the orcs... although I'd rather run. I would as a 1e character as well.

Cheers!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Because these creatures have other functions BESIDES screwing over the players. The rust monster, the disenchanter and various other gotcha creatures exist for the sole purpose of screwing over the players. They don't do anything else. A rust monster can't attack. It's only function is to destroy equipment.

You're just yanking my chain, right? You are aware that rust monsters have a bite attack?

In any event, you clearly wouldn't care for the Mining Guild of Umar-To, which sends out assay teams with leashed rust monsters in order to search for new veins of ore (they can smell up within 90 feet)....Or the time that a group of grim adventurers broke into the Iron Citadel by rusting away a portion of a wall....After all, those things are un-possible.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Honestly, I don't think it's necessarily a waste. Let's not be too precious about our mortal PCs.

But...but...but....They are all special snowflakes!

 

[Raven Crowking]

BR, let me ask you something then, outside of mechanics, what makes earlier editions D&D? I know it's poor form to answer a question with a question, but, then again, KM just got blasted for asking for concrete information about what can be done in earlier editions that can't be done in 3e, so, excuse me for not jumping up to your challenge.

And, yet, KM did receive concrete information as well. The differences in mechanics that make 3e more like RM are a prime example of someone answering with concrete information. Even I, who did the "blasting" (and that was more for the change of "topic" as it were -- KM asked about the "soul" of D&D, and then concluded that the editions were all the same because the replies he got dealt with issues other than mechanics....making the OP a question designed to foster a conclusion if there ever was one), gave the example of the shift in focus between what the characters do to how the characters are made.

(BTW, noting that such a change has occurred is not synonomous with claiming that players shouldn't have any control over how their characters develop, as was implied. That the game becomes about making builds however, takes it too far IMHO. And the problem isn't that the choices are available; the problem is that there aren't enough ways to get back on track if you don't plan for 20th level at 1st. A problem I solved for my home game.)


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Feats were introduced to the game in Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures. <snip> Stat increases in Unearthed Arcana.

What exactly do you mean by feats here? What exactly do you mean by stat increases?


RC

 

[MerricB]

Joining us in the blue corner, are those stalwart adventurers from G1! Let's hear it for the G1 characters! Yay!

Frush O'Suggil. Human Fighter 14. HP 104 (Con 17)
Redmod Dumple. Dwarf Fighter 9. HP 82 (Con 17)
Beek Gwenders of Croodle. Half-Elf Ranger 9. HP 93 (Con 18)

Joining us in the red corner, are a few creatures from the Monster Manual! Hiss! Grr!

Aerial Servant - max 32 damage (HD 16)
Baluchitherium - max 40 damage (HD 14)
Cave Bear - max 28 damage (HD 6+6)
Stag Beetle - max 36 damage (HD 7)
Bulette - max 84 damage (HD 9)... and Redmod Dumple is down!
Carrion Crawler - max 0 damage. (go figure)
Chimera - max 34 damage
Type VI Demon - max 54 damage
Pit Fiend - max 20 damage. (Wimp!)
Tyrannosaurus Rex - max 52 damage
Dragonne - max 34 damage
Dragon Turtle - max 56 damage
Earth Elemental - max 34 damage
Loxodont (African Elephant) - max 68 damage (huh?)
Ettin - max 34 damage
Cloud Giant - max 36 damage
Fire Giant - max 30 damage
Storm Giant - max 42 damage
Iron Golem - max 40 damage
Hydra - max 40 damage (12-headed hydra, but only 4 can attack one opponent)
Kobold - 4 damage
Lynx, Giant - 8 ("Whaddya mean we gotta talk to this lynx?? The last mnster we talked to ate half the party!")
Manticore - 36 damage (spikes)
Mastodon - 68 damage (the moral of the story is: don't anger the elephants)
Nightmare - 28 damage
Nymph - see below (a double entendre!)
Ogre - 10 damage
Giant Otter - 18 damage. (Yes, a giant otter is more dangerous than an ogre. Huh?)
Owlbear - 24 damage. (New Owlbear in Blood War. Yay!)
Piercer - 24 damage.
Purple Worm - 32 damage (and hope it doesn't roll high!)
Remorhaz - 36 damage
Roc - 36 damage (Despite the roc carrying an elephant, I'd still prefer to be attacked by the roc.)
Sea Lion - 24 damage
Shambling Mound - 32 damage.
Shrieker - nil. (Its friends, on the other hand...)
Criosphinx - 34 damage
Su-monster - 24 damage (I still don't know what one is)
Titan - 90 damage (17+ HD) ... and Redmod Dumple is down! But Beek is still going!
Troll - 28 damage
Umber Hulk - 34 damage
Whale - 60 damage
Xorn - 33 damage

The Adventurers win!

Now, obviously I've left out the unique creatures and dragons. I've also used some rather High-Con PCs. I rather doubt any fighter of less than 15 Con is going to reach 10th level. 15 Con says "I have 62 hit points at level 10 on average." 16 Con gives 71 hp.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

What exactly do you mean by feats here? What exactly do you mean by stat increases?

Feats - UA Weapon specialisation; OA Martial Art Styles; OA Non Weapon Proficiencies, particularly Tracking, Iaijutsu; DSG NWP, particularly Blind-fighting, Endurance, Slow Respiration.

Stat Increases - Paladin and Cavalier.

Cheers!