Effecting change for the next edition

[thecasualoblivion]

A lot of people say that their complaints about 4E are aimed at making things different for the next edition. These people invoke the complaints people were making about 3E as being the cornerstones of what was addressed when 4E was being designed. I think people are missing some important points on this subject:

1. First and foremost, those complaints people were making about 3E were being made by 3E players and DMs. People who had issues with a game they were otherwise playing. During all of the time I spent on Gleemax complaining about powergaming, too-powerful spellcasting, Fighter Sux, Magic Item Walmart and Christmas Tree, and too much work for the DM, I was still a D&D customer and playing/DMing 3E. A large majority of the complaints about 4E by people trying to achieve change are being made by people who are not playing 4E. The feedback from people who are actually customers/players is a lot more likely to be listened to than those of non-customers/players.

2. Complaints from noncustomers and people unhappy with the system are only important if sales do not meet goals. If they meet their sales goals for the game, the complaints of people who aren't playing and people who preferred the last edition and jumped ship can be safely ignored.

3. Many common 4E complaints such as it not being OGL, dumping simulationism, making the game more of a strong class system, and making the rules for monster and PC creation different were clear design decisions that they had to know would anger some D&D players. Anger and complaints over these things are to be expected, and will only mean anything after the passage of time has sorted this out.

 

[Ydars]

I agree with you entirely; lots of people who complain about 4E are just haters.

But I would just point something out as a counterpoint; there are LOTS of these people, they are not just a vocal minority.

This suggests to me that 4E has some serious problems. I haven't played it yet, so I reserve judgement, but I can already see more problems than I did with 3.5E.

I just wish less of EN world was about edition wars at present. Lets get back to talking about the games and how to play them instead of playing "my game is better than yours".

 

[The Little Raven]

But I would just point something out as a counterpoint; there are LOTS of these people, they are not just a vocal minority.

Nitpick: There can be lots of these people, and they could still be a vocal minority.

I just wish less of EN world was about edition wars at present. Lets get back to talking about the games and how to play them instead of playing "my game is better than yours".

My game would beat up your game, but my game doesn't want to get hit with your game's purse.

 

[Zil]

2. Complaints from noncustomers and people unhappy with the system are only important if sales do not meet goals. If they meet their sales goals for the game, the complaints of people who aren't playing and people who preferred the last edition and jumped ship can be safely ignored.

I'd have to disagree somewhat on that. If many of those complaining were former customers of the previous version(s) of the game, and if the numbers of people in this category were significant, then the company would probably have an interest in listening to their complaints and seeing if they can somehow be accommodated down the road. The issue is how large a group of formerly loyal customers are out there and what are the potential lost revenues for not somehow satisfying that group. Just because sales goals were achieved does not mean that sales could not have been higher.

 

[Halivar]

Meh. In four years, we'll be arguing about different aspects of 4E than we are today. By then, I will have found something in 4E to gripe about. Who knows? It may be that a hater today is the defender I argue with tomorrow. Things change. People change their minds. Some things get comfortable, and other things become irritants.

99% of all intarweb arguments (including any I make) are ephemeral and unimportant. We only do it for catharsis, anyhow.

Now, when WotC starts the 5E dev cycle, that will be a different story.

 

[Plane Sailing]

This is basically an 'edition wars' thread, in that you are taking a shot at "people" who "complain about 4e".

I'm closing it down before it veers into territory which will result in warnings and bannings. It is unlikely to go anywhere useful.

Thanks