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EGG on 'The Spirit of AD&D'

The Grumpy Celt

Banned
Banned
S'mon said:
"This is a fantasy RPG predicated on the assumption that the human race... ...is made up of good people.

Good by what standards? Pie-eyed idealism? Narcissism? Or maybe narcissistic pie-eyed idealism?

Belbarid said:
Sadly, it's rarely *run* by good people...

I agree. In fact, in my experience (I used to be a reporter and hung around the courthouse, town hall, senators and all the lackies that make this list possible) most people in positions of leadership are sociopaths.

Belbarid said:
...the average IQ of a mob is equal to the sum of the members' IQ, divided by the number of toes present.

I like that… I may take it for a sig in the future. Or put it on a tee-shirt.

shilsen said:
I'd say that the idea that humans are generally good is, frankly, pretty far removed from a lot of reality.

I agree. In fact, this belief (based on copious personal experience) in the cornerstone for my life philosophy.

Indeed the notion that people are “good” by anything resembling an objective standard is almost alien to my experience. But then this is a fantasy game, so maybe in the same way we accept the idea of elves, magic and gods, we should simply accept the idea that “people are good.”

Western outlaw
 

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Raven Crowking

First Post
PapersAndPaychecks said:
Can't say I entirely agree with this.

Personally I think good roleplaying is its own reward.

I also think heroism is at its most heroic in a brutal, cold, bleak and nasty universe.

You know the kind of thing I mean? When the hordes of darkness overwhelm the party, and the paladin stands against evil and holds the cave-mouth against the tentacled Elder Thing while the NPC mother and daughter flee to safety?

When the paladin dies doing that... it's the pinnacle of heroism and chivalry. Getting saved by GM fiat cheapens his deed.

But then, I like things gritty. ;)


If your preferred playstyle is "PCs take incredible risks without fear or expectation of failure", then getting saved by DM fiat is a method of achieving this goal. However, it otherwise has nothing to do with what I said.

The paladin who stands against the hordes of darkness is heroic because of the context of his struggle. The NPC mother and daughter are not fundamentally the same as the Elder Thing. The NPCs are worth protecting, and worth dying for to protect.

Making this scenario work with good effect in a game requires that the players are capable of making certain assumptions about the world....and informed assumptions are better in this context than uniformed ones. It requires that the players can believe that the NPCs in question are worth protecting, that the Elder Thing is worth stopping, and that their actions take place in a larger context that retains its meaning despite the paladin's (or party's) death.

If it is routinely true that the Elder Thing is a demon trying to prevent another pair of demons disguised as mother and daughter from escaping the Abysss, and the party's sacrifice has vastly increased the evil and suffering in the region, you will soon see a drop in players willing to play paladins, or to sacrifice themselves for what might seem to be "the greater good". They will learn that the "greater good" is mythological in that world....and they will learn it with surprising quickness and depth of feeling.


RC
 

Fenes said:
IMC (altered FR), the humans are the predominant race, and control much of the world, the older races having lost their power of old times in countless wars, and lacking the human drives, ambition and birthrate to recover. Humans also are more flexible, and more creative, able to adapt quickly where tradition-bound dwarves and elves cannot.
The even more popoulos goblinoids on the other hand lack the organisation, and intelligence/knowledge/skill to topple the humans - so far - and their birthrates are not that much better than humanity's.

Very similar to my Greyhawk campaign, and somewhat similar to Middle Earth, except that there, humanity is weaker, perhaps tied with the orcish/goblinoid forces.

Fenes said:
Neither humans nor elves or dwarves are generally "good", as in altruistic, they are out for themselves, their family, clan, nation.

Not that loving your family and/or nation is incompatible with being good. I'd say in my campaign, the average human is N, with NG tendencies. Sort of like the typical AD&D druid, who's supposed to be N, but acts NG a lot, and NE almost never.
 

gunderval

First Post
Normal = Neutral

In 3.0/3.5, given the text in PHB I've long ruled that most people are Neutral. They like to think they're Good but they don't reliably rise to that level of conduct when it is truly selfless to do so, tending rather to do so only selectively (with their family, members of community, people they have recurring relationships with, not with strangers, social outcasts, foreigners etc.).

If everyone was Good, the hero's Goodness would not shine so brightly is part of this premise, not just a grim view of reality.

Humans are the most numerous race in the known world, a large number of them are ruled by elven overlords though. There are other continents where their standing is quite different but those places are not focus of play.

Rob
 

Pseudopsyche

First Post
gunderval said:
In 3.0/3.5, given the text in PHB I've long ruled that most people are Neutral. They like to think they're Good but they don't reliably rise to that level of conduct when it is truly selfless to do so, tending rather to do so only selectively (with their family, members of community, people they have recurring relationships with, not with strangers, social outcasts, foreigners etc.).

I'm with you. IMC, I define (mortal) good and evil in terms of a character's attitudes towards strangers. Everyone can behave decently to their friends (except when they hurt the ones they love in the way that all humans do). Good characters feel an innate desire to help strangers; evil characters, to exploit them. I suspect that the vast majority of people just go about their own business.
 


Raven Crowking said:
I am always amazed by the number of DMs who bemoan the unheroic actions of their players, while providing them with a world in which heroism is not only not encouraged, but is actively punished.

It is not only true that the average person must be worth protecting in order to make heroic play rewarding, but it must be true that the players see this in action. NPCs should offer the PCs what little they have, not just as a reward, but because it is the right thing to do. They should offer to sleep in the barn so that the PCs can take their house (and they should be grateful when the PCs opt to sleep in the barn themselves). They should offer simple, but good, food, without expecting anything in return.

We may live in a culture where deceit and selfishness are virtues, but for the average commoner in a D&D world, deceit and selfishness are deadly.

First off, most commoners don't travel very far from their homes -- they have to live with, and rely on, the same folks for all their lives. A reputation for lying or stealing will not serve them in good stead. It is hard to overstate the importance of reputation in a pre-industrial world. Secondly, most commoners in a D&D world rely on shared resources: grazing commons, mill, millpond, storage facilities, and even to some extent arable land (for hay, if for nothing else). Thirdly, most commoners in a D&D world live in areas where punishment for infractions is swift, seldom codified, and can be made to fit the crime; there is a real imperative not to steal your neighbour's pig when the local lord can take all your livestock as a result. Finally, reliance on each other is necessary for protection in a D&D world. Not only is a group of commoners more effective against wolves than a single commoner, but by fulfilling their obligations to their local lord, they gain the right to his protection.

Among other things, this allows you (as DM) to demonstrate:

(1) The city, with its relative anonymity, is different than the country. Because everyone in a village knows each other, they behave in a certain way. In a city, it is easier to fleece the unsuspecting and still get the support you need to survive.

(2) Reputation matters. Threaten Bob the Innkeep, and you discover that you've threatened the whole village. Doors close to you that might otherwise have been open. Prices inflate everywhere. No one likes you, except that shady guy who was socially ostracized before.

(3) Feudalism is a protection racket. Actually carry out your threat against Bob the Innkeep, and all hands are against you. You are a wanted outlaw, with soldiers combing the local woodlands for your capture.

(4) Reputation matters (part 2). When Scuzzbert the Thief steals your magic sword, and it is your word against his with the local lord, it is gratifying that the entire village rises to defend your word. More gratifying still is the moment that Scuzzbert's feet stop twitching on the gallows, and he is left to the ravens.

(5) That protection racket goes both ways. As a party rises in power, the local political players/powers woo the PCs with gifts and honorifics. If the PCs return these overtures, they can make strong alliances that lead to increased security at home (and more adventure as they aid their allies to deal with problems they are having). Players can certainly be encouraged to begin this process, btw.

Another bonus is that the treacherous NPC, when used sparingly, is actually effective. This factor alone makes Gary's methodology worthwhile, IMHO.

This is very similar, btw, to DMs who want their players to talk to monsters instead of just wading in with spells and swords blazing. If you want that, you have to provide an environment that nurtures and rewards it. You have to demonstrate that it is worth doing. You have to demonstrate the pitfalls of the opposite approach.
This is one of the most inspiring ideas I have read on ENworld for quite some time. You have given me some things to think about and I really appreciate that.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
S'mon said:
pg 26 Role-Playing Mastery (1987), by E Gary Gygax:

"This is a fantasy RPG predicated on the assumption that the human race, by and large, is made up of good people. Humans, with the help of their demi-human allies, are and should remain the predominant force in the world. They have achieved and continue to hold on to this status, despite the ever-present threat of evil, mainly because of the dedication, honor, and unselfishness of the most heroic humans and demi-humans - the characters whose roles are taken by the players of the game."

I'm sorely tempted to apply some cultural Marxist Frankfurt School Deconstruction/Critique to this, but I'll just say I thought this was a very interesting perspective. I wondered to what extent you think your own D&D games and campaign worlds conform to this analysis?

I still prefer WizardDru's quote on "the Soul of D&D:"

"The Soul of D&D? It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory." - WizarDru

The game itself can take many forms, many settings, and many premises, but in my experience, the above is the kind of experience that so many players strive to get, who keep coming back again and again in search of it, and for which stories are told around the table for years after they actually happen. While Gary's supposition is a great premise, one on which so much fantasy has been based, it's not the only one in so much of the literature which spawned D&D. I can definitely say that neither Conan nor Elric took such stances in their tales, for the most part.
 

Raven Crowking said:
(4) Reputation matters (part 2). When Scuzzbert the Thief steals your magic sword, and it is your word against his with the local lord, it is gratifying that the entire village rises to defend your word. More gratifying still is the moment that Scuzzbert's feet stop twitching on the gallows, and he is left to the ravens.

Scuzzbert was framed!

joe b.
 

The Grumpy Celt

Banned
Banned
It all still depends on what is meant by "good," and in this context who gets to define the term. The GM? The players? The characters?

Raven Crowking said:
I am always amazed by the number of DMs who bemoan the unheroic actions of their players, while providing them with a world in which heroism is not only not encouraged, but is actively punished.

People want everything, they want it now, they don't want to have to pay for it and they usually don't want anyone else to have anything.

Jack7 said:
Heroism is about deeds. Good deeds, selfless deeds, dangerous deeds, deeds in service to another.

People may say that and they tell them selves they beleive it but in practice they rape the women, burn the village, ride out on stolen horses and get pissed at you if you're not singing hozzanah's to them all the while. People are no damn good. People are poison. People are hell.

Mallus said:
That's the funniest, not to mention bleakest, thing I've read in weeks. Kudos.

Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week. Try the veal.
 

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