Eladrin Rogue Questions - skills and feats ?

[Istar]

Okay so 30 years of 2nd Edition and now we are going to play a 4e campaign.

Its like another language.
A different game.
What skills and feats should I be looking at for a Brutal Scoundrel Eladrin Rogue that is wanting to focus on mellee ability.

I like Daggermaster but the 1-4 Dagger damage looks quite bad, the 18 to 20 crit I like, especially with all the crit effects you can get through skills and feats. And alos the MA high crit Feat.
Is there a way to keep the 18 to 20 but get the dice up to 1-8 somehow.

Does gettng Rapier would give me the 1-8 damage but then there is no point going Daggermaster.
What sort of magical weapons and items should I be looking for.
And other advice.

 

[chitzk0i]

Well, you'll obviously get Backstabber, right? By paragon tier, your Sneak Attack dice will be 3d8, so on a crit, that'll get maxed.

 

[themilkman]

My advice would be not to worry about the weapon dice so much. I don't think you can find 18-20 crit anywhere else in the game (right now, at least) and the +1 attack bonus to dagger attacks is handy too. Also remember that with the wider crit range, you're going to be critting much more often, and a critical hit will maximize all of those extra sneak attack dice.

If, however, you do want to increase the weapon dice, you have a few options. One, you could take a weapon proficiency feat and pick up a rapier. You'll have to find a different paragon path, and the best you can do is 19-20 crit with Light Blade Mastery in Epic.

A third, trickier path, would be to take the Longsword Finesse feat (from Martial Power), which lets you use a longsword as a light blade for rogue purposes. Combined with Eladrin Soldier, this will net you some consistenty good rolls. Also, it will let you get the excellent Heavy Blade Opportunity feat in Paragon. However, you will lose one dice of sneak attack damage, and to increase your crit, you'll have to take the Heavy Blade Mastery feat, which requires some stats that you might want.

There are many more options out there, but to sum up these three options:

Dagger: Small weapon dice, but you will hit more consistenty and crit more often once you get the Daggermaster Paragon Path.

Rapier: Better damage dice, no enhanced crit until Epic, must spend extra feats.

Longsword Finesse: Better damage dice, damage bonuses, and Heavy Blade opportunity in paragon level. Hard to increase your crit in Epic.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head. Others probably have better ideas.

 

[burntgerbil]

I have played a rogue - It was a lot of fun. Here are a few pointers. I agree with the posters above that weapon damage is almost a non-issue with rogues : They need the Sneak Attack Damage.

1) + to hit in 4e is way more important than damage.

2) As a rogue, the bulk of your damage is dealt through Sneak Attacks - get them often.

3) Be prepared to be the heaviest hitter in the party - but also one of the most fragile. You need to be constantly damaging your enemies to propel your party successfully through encounters.

4) You have a lot of useful skills ( Streetwise, Perception, Thievery) Don't forget about them.

5) I find Backstabber, Toughness and Nimble Blade to be solid early feats

6) You are right, it is a vastly different game, but view it on it's own merits and you should enjoy it. Remember - It does not need to emulate older editions.

7) Plan for the first three or four levels only. When learning the game, your goals may change vastly by then. By fourth level, your party should have a very good grasp on tactics and team play.

 

[Istar]

Excellent stuff guys, the Dagger-Rapier-Longsword issue has been troubling me.

I will go Dagger Master now, looking at:

Backstabber
Nimble Blade
Toughness (At level 11)
Two-Weapon Fighting / Weapon Focus (do they both stack ?)
Surprise Knockdown (goes well with 15% crit chance) - if I knock enemy prone I have combat advantage next turn ?
Devastating Critical
Slayers Action (MA) - looks very good.
Epic Resurgence
Triumphant Attack
Fast Runner - is +2 to speed going to be useful ?
Improved Initiative - is +4 initiative useful ?
Press the Advantage - to keep CA if you crit seems very good, is that any good as my build looks like it will not have enough Charisma, or is CA usually gained pretty easily ?
Secret Stride - moe at full speed and hide, useful or will Rogue utilities be enough
Brutal Wound (MA) - is this going to be good ?
Rogue Weapon Mastery (MA) - dagger gains high crit extra damage, this looks like a must have feat.
Lasting Advantage (MA) - a level 21 must have for Dagger Master ?

I am thinking using Hand-Crossbow for Ranged sneak attacks before the main battle commence's ?

Daggermaster Action - why spend an action point to re-roll an attack when you just spend an AP to get another attack, whats the benefit ??

What sort of Utilities, Encounter Powers work well with a Brutal Scoundrel Rogue 20 Dex, 14 Strength, 13 Con.

 

[Byronic]

Daggermaster Action - why spend an action point to re-roll an attack when you just spend an AP to get another attack, whats the benefit ??

Useless if you've just used an at-will, but quite valuable if you just used your most powerful daily.

 

[themilkman]

Surprise Knockdown (goes well with 15% crit chance) - if I knock enemy prone I have combat advantage next turn ?

You have CA against prone enemies, but chances are that any enemy that you knock prone will stand up on its next turn. If you knock an enemy prone and then use an Action Point, you can attack them again before they stand up. Otherwise, this will just force your enemy to spend a move action to stand up. Maybe useful for a rogue, because it can pin people down but chances are that you won't get much use from this feat.

Slayers Action (MA) - looks very good.

The only thing I can find named "Slayer's Action" is a fighter paragon path feature from Martial Power. There is no way for you to get access to this, since you're going to be taking Daggermaster as your paragon path. There is no other way to get paragon path features from another paragon path. If there is another feat or power named Slayer's Action, then ignore me because I don't know what I'm talking about.

Fast Runner - is +2 to speed going to be useful ?

Maybe? This depends a lot on your party composition and DM. If you have defenders and controllers to slow and pin enemies, then it won't be important. If you play a lot of small interior rooms where there isn't much space to run, then it won't be important. I wouldn't take it unless you can't find anything else worth picking up.

Improved Initiative - is +4 initiative useful ?

Yeah, it's pretty useful. Some people take Quick Draw instead, since it also provides additional benefits about drawing weapons. If you throw a lot of daggers, then this might be useful, until you get a magic dagger. The initiative bonus provided by Quick Draw (+2, I think) doesn't stack with improved initiative, so take one or the other.

Press the Advantage - to keep CA if you crit seems very good, is that any good as my build looks like it will not have enough Charisma, or is CA usually gained pretty easily ?

Rogues have some good ways to get CA without charisma. In fact, Bluff is only one way to get CA for one turn once per encounter. Rogues have better ways to get CA, like putting on conditions (stun, blind, and daze), through stealth, and with flanking. You can still be an effective rogue without Charisma.

Secret Stride - moe at full speed and hide, useful or will Rogue utilities be enough

Make sure you really understand the stealth rules before you try to make stealth an important part of your character. Those rules are still a bit of a mess, and tough to understand. At least, I've had trouble getting them down. IMO, you can still be a very effective rogue in 4e without using stealth.

Brutal Wound (MA) - is this going to be good ?

I'm a big fan of ongoing damage, so I like this. Other people may find it less cool, but I think it's a solid feat.

Lasting Advantage (MA) - a level 21 must have for Dagger Master ?

Looks like a very solid feat. Daggermaster = More crits. Lasting Advantage = More CA. Should let you do your thing in style.

I am thinking using Hand-Crossbow for Ranged sneak attacks before the main battle commence's ?

Throwing daggers works well too, but I don't think the range is quite as good. Remember that you'll get an extra +1 to hit with daggers. At any rate, you don't need to worry about keeping track of minor actions as much.

Daggermaster Action - why spend an action point to re-roll an attack when you just spend an AP to get another attack, whats the benefit ??

Byronic nailed this one on the head. Rerolling lets you take another crack at landing that super-important daily attack power.

What sort of Utilities, Encounter Powers work well with a Brutal Scoundrel Rogue 20 Dex, 14 Strength, 13 Con.

There are a lot of powers out there, here are some that I like from the first few levels. Also, a few powers are dependent on being trained in certain skills. I don't know what skills you have, so I've ignored those entirely. Enjoy.

Level 1 Encounter: Sly Lunge (MP). Deals extra Strength damage and the baddy grants you CA for next turn. Can only target baddies who are already granting CA, but if you get it once, you can stretch it over two turns without having to do any work... if you hit.

Level 2 Utility: Adaptable Flanker (MP). Gets you combat advantage if anyone at all is adjacent to the baddy.
Tumble (PHB). Lets you shift 3, which is almost always enough to get into a flanking position against a medium creature. Can also get you out of trouble if you need to escape.

Level 3 Encounter: Setup Strike (PHB). Target grants you CA until the end of your next turn. Effortless CA.
Nasty Backswing (MP). Triggers on a miss from another attack. Automatically grants you CA. Allows you to shift 1. Deals strength damage. Free Action attack.

Level 6 Utility: Vexing Flanker (MP). Shift into any space adjacent to an enemy when an ally moves adjacent to the enemy. Automatic CA for your ally, and for you unless the badguy moves after you. Immediate Reaction, so it doesn't use up actions on your turn.
Sidestep Stance (MP). +2 AC against a single enemies Melee attacks until the end of the encounter. Good to improve your defense, if you're getting dropped frequently. Daily power.

 

[Gruns]

All about the Crits

The primary reason to go with Daggermaster is the 18-20 Crit Range. Not only do you want to look at the obvious feats that benefit from crits, most of which were already mentioned such as Devastating Critical(PHB202), Press the Advantage(if you have the CHA, PHB199) and Surprise Knockdown(if you have the STR, PHB201), but you should also be sure to get a good magical dagger that benefits from crits, as well.
Some of the better ones that come to mind:
Vicious(PHB236): Simply +1d12 per plus
Assassin's(AV63): Ongoing poison damage
Blade of Night(AV65): Blinded until EOYNT
Bloodiron(AV65): +1d10 per plus, and same damage again next turn.
Graceful(AV70): +Dex Mod per plus
Tyrant's(AV81): +1d6 per plus and Knocked prone

Later!
Gruns

 

[Stalker0]

I would say the daggermaster is the only PP that makes crit feats worth it. Else crits are too rare to be spending feats on them imo.

 

[DracoSuave]

Lasting Advantage is only worth it if you're not a Daggermaster, which gives you that as its level 16 feature.